Choose Your Framework - The Equity Imperative w/ Ale Trevino and Deshawn Adams

Insight: There are many frameworks for pursuing organizational culture and diversity, and each has different objectives.

Action: Choose your framework and know why.

The conversation I’m sharing with you today is with my friends Deshawn Adams and Ale Trevino. Deshawn is a human capital consultant for Deloitte and he and I connected many years ago through a racial justice education program we were co-leading at our church. And Ale is an MBA Candidate at Kellogg School of Management, but prior to being a grad student was also at Deloitte working as a consultant and strategist. I got to know Ale through an organization we both love called Plywood People. I had Deshawn and Ale on the podcast because last year, they were on the team at Deloitte that created a report called The Equity Imperative. This report, which is linked in the show notes, is full of world-class research and business insights for leaders who want to do more than talk a good game about DEI. I was so grateful to be able to talk Ale and Deshawn about the equity imperative and about what racial equity requires of us in this day and age.

Quick note, while Deshawn and Ale created this report at Deloitte, the opinions they express in our conversation belong to Deshawn and Ale alone, and do not reflect an official perspective of Deloitte as a company.

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Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

equity, people, diversity, thinking, business, deloitte, racial equity, report, ale, business leaders, called, black, question, company, role, bethany, friends, perspective, deshawn, inequitable

SPEAKERS

Bethaney Wilkinson, Deshawn Adams, Ale Trevino

Bethaney Wilkinson  00:00

Hey, did you know you can officially preorder my book. It's called the diversity gap where good intentions meet true cultural change. If you are struggling to pair your good intentions for organizational diversity with thoughtful, human centered and story driven practices, then this book is for you, and the book I share eight key insights and actions you can engage to create a diverse and liberating organizational culture. I also share some personal stories in the research I've done over the past three years about why diversity gaps exist and how everyday people can close them. It is good stuff and I am so excited to share it with all of you. Visit www dot the diversity gap. com to pre order your copy today. Welcome to the diversity gap podcast. This is the book edition. My name is Bethany Wilkinson, and I am your host Hello, hello and welcome to another episode of the book edition of the diversity gap podcast you are in for such a treat today as I got to sit down with two of my very good friends two of my favorite people in the world to discuss how business leaders and the private sector as a whole can do more to advance racial equity. But before we get there, I want to unpack the theme of chapter four of the book. Today's chapter a focus is called choose your framework. And the guiding insight for this chapter is that there are many different frameworks for pursuing organizational culture and diversity. And each of these different frames has different objectives. If you're looking to increase diversity, the vehicles you mobilize will be different than the ones you use when advancing reconciliation. And the vehicles you use to advance reconciliation are different than the ones you would use to pursue liberation from oppressive systems. Our task is to get crystal clear on what we're pursuing and why choose your framework. The conversation I'm sharing with you today is with my friends to Sean Adams and Ale Trevino to Sean is a human capital consultant for Deloitte and Ale is an MBA candidate at Kellogg School of Management. But prior to being a grad student, Ali was also at Deloitte working as a consultant and strategist. So john and Ollie know each other pretty well. I got to know to shine through a racial justice education program, or initiative, I should say, we that we were co leading at our church many years ago. And I got to know Ale through working at plywood people a nonprofit, here in Atlanta, Georgia. Now I had Deshawn and Ale on the podcast, because last year, they were both on a team at Deloitte that created a report called the equity imperative, which is linked in the show notes. And this report is I mean, it's incredible. It is full of world class research and business insights for leaders who want to do more than talk a good game about DEI. I was so grateful to be able to talk to Ale and  DeShawn, about the equity imperative and about what racial equity requires of us in this day and age. Quick note, while dushaan and adalet created this report at Deloitte, the opinions expressed in our conversation, belong to them alone and do not reflect an official perspective of Deloitte as a company. I hope this conversation is as inspiring to you as it was to me enjoy. All right. All right, everybody. I am so excited to have two of my very, very good friends, Ali and to Sean on the show. Hello, you guys. How are you? Good. I'm so excited to be here.

Ale Trevino  03:58

Doing great and I'm super excited.

Bethaney Wilkinson  04:01

Good, good. Well, I kick off all of my conversations with the same question. And I think this is the first time I've had two guests on at one time. So you can just decide which order you want to go in. But my first question is, when did you first become aware of your race or ethnic identity? When did you first become aware?Ale, how about you you go first? 

Ale Trevino  04:24

Sure. Um, so for me, it's kind of interesting, because I, as you know, I was born in Mexico, and I moved to the US when I was 11 years old. And so for me, race really became like, I didn't know about it until I moved to the US and I, you know, all of a sudden, started hearing certain things about assumptions of certain groups of people, specifically about Mexicans and black people and Asian people and all these things that I just didn't really encounter in Mexico. And I you know, it's Kind of interesting because I even had to learn to say, instead of I'm Mexican, I had to learn to Sam. I'm from Mexico, because even those things were so racialized and had such a negative connotation. But yeah, I'd say it was probably around around that age.

Bethaney Wilkinson  05:14

Yeah. And how old? Were you? Was that? Did you say 11? Or did I make? Yeah, I was 11. Okay, and how about you to shine? When did you first become aware of your race or ethnic identity?

Deshawn Adams  05:25

Yeah, I definitely have to think back. So for me, I would say, I noticed difference in terms of race way back as early as four years old. So just for context, you know, I grew up in foster care, and was later adopted by a family that is black. But as I was going through foster care, one of the moments I realized or remembered, was way back when and when my mom was going out of town. And I was actually invited over to one of their friend's house houses, who was, um, you know, a white woman, and I believe she had a partner as well, who identified as I believe his ethnicity was African, specifically, Kenyan. He, you know, I didn't know enough about like, who they were. So as a child, of course, I was thinking like, Oh, my God, I've never met these people, but specifically his wife, I remember, you know, thinking like, she looks different than me, but I don't know exactly what that is. And so I actually validated that with my family members over the this past weekend, because I went up to North Carolina with family, but definitely, that was my first time realizing that there was people who looked different than me, you know, I now know that that's obviously raised. And then the second thing I would say, quick story, you know, when I was in elementary school, I was a part of a program called advanced learners. So what's equivalent to now what they call gifted programs in schools, was in a predominantly black neighborhood, honestly, 95% black neighborhood, and, you know, was going to school and was in a class with others who were a part of this program, and didn't realize, but you know, I remember, a lot of my neighborhood friends were like, not enrolled in that program, not in that class. And as a child, you know, when I was eight or nine years old, I didn't really have the context to think like, Oh, wait, there's like systems and structures in place that are preventing, you know, excluding, essentially my neighborhood friends from being in this class. So we can unpack that later. But you know, long story short, you know, I was one of the only black students in that class, and didn't really understand the social context around what was happening and why that was the case. But those two moments I would say, collectively are as early as I can remember, knowing that I was black, and, you know, realizing my racial background.

Bethaney Wilkinson  07:53

Yeah, thanks so much for sharing that as well. And it's interesting, that resonates a lot with my experience, I think some of my most, I don't know, I guess the memories that are the strongest for me, a lot of them involve school and being trapped into a gifted program, and not really having the language or perspective to understand the just the racialized dynamics of even that experience. And so, gosh, that could be like a, like its own conversation. Yeah, yeah. It's a whole thing. But I'm curious to hear from each of you, how would you say your racial background or your ethnic identity show up in the work you're doing today? And I'll, I'll kick it back to you.

Ale Trevino  08:35

Yeah, I am. I'll say that I kind of was lucky enough in my last few months at Deloitte to, I guess, my last year to be able to switch into very specific space around diversity, equity inclusion, and I think my unique background as a Mexican immigrant woman, and the intersectionality, between all those kind of helped me bring that very unique perspective into the work, especially when we talk around, you know, what diversity equity inclusion means in the United States versus in Mexico or other countries? Just because I mean, quick, quick difference. And I think this goes back to the question that you asked a little bit earlier around. You know, in the United States, the big, we see a lot of inequality around race, whereas in Mexico, we see a lot of inequality around class and socioeconomic status. And I think those things have been were really helpful towards the end of, of my job delayed and now even switching into my MBA program. I'm just incredibly, incredibly conscious around the privilege around the people who were able to apply the program to get into the program. And you know, Bethany here when we're talking about this a few months ago, but like the amount of accumulated wealth required to even be successful in the program, and This idea of you know, buying in literally with hundreds of 1000s of dollars. And the idea that, you know, that's not a reality for people of, you know, lower socioeconomic backgrounds, which, sadly tends to be tied to race and ethnicity and immigration status. Yeah, thanks

Bethaney Wilkinson  10:24

for sharing super thoughtful breakdown there. And, yeah, there's so much around school and y'all are my friends. So I could talk to you a lot about that. But I'm trying to stay focused on like, Okay, let me say focus on this business thing. So this, Shawn, how about you? How is your racial background showing up in the work you're doing?

Deshawn Adams  10:43

Yeah, so similar, you know, similar story. So I am a part of, you know, been fortunate to be a part of the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion consulting practice. here recently, over the last, I would say, eight months. But before that, you know, I'll transparently say I've made my racial identity a part of all the work that I do, like me, I've always, like made it very known, like one of you see me, I'm a tall, dark skinned black man. So like, you'll obviously make an assumption that, Oh, that's a, you know, a tall black guy. But I also like, bring voice and perspective, and just my being to everything that I do in terms of my work. And I've done that over, I would say, the last eight years of my career, so even as far back I'm thinking to my time at UPS. So, you know, I was a part of the business, what they call a business resource group or employee resource group. So I led both the communications as well as that network of black employees, and was really advocating a lot for the, you know, the work in the workplace for a lot of the policies and practices that ups have in place. So I was very much so on the front line, trying to translate a lot of the work and knowledge around racial identity work from Morehouse to the corporate space was certainly but her along the way, because I like to bring a lot of radical ideas that don't always translate into business efforts and initiatives with leaders, but with say, like, I'm right, you know, definitely try to bring that perspective. And to all the work that I do more specifically, right now in partnering with technology clients, so a lots of clients in the Silicon Valley, who are thinking about how to make their workforces, more diverse, more equitable, inclusive, and really, to create a space of belonging for a lot of their workers to grow their business, you know, ultimately, to make sure that there's more innovation, etc. So, I would say, you know, definitely bring that perspective in. And even when it's not, like on paper, you need to talk about the I work, I make sure that people are encouraged to have those types of conversations.

Bethaney Wilkinson  13:00

Really great. So um, so we're gonna get into the equity imperative, which is the report that you you and your team worked on at Deloitte. And it's just so incredible. But before we get there, I want to ask you a question about your name. Because when I first met you, you were going by alley. And yeah, I guess it was a little over a year ago that you change that and said, Hey, would you mind calling me this? And I was like, of course. So can you unpack that journey for us a little bit? 

Ale Trevino  13:30

Yeah, it is kind of crazy that it's, it feels like a year, right. It's only been about a year. But um, as I mentioned, I moved to the US when I was 11. And I remember showing up sixth grade, which is already a super awkward time. And I said, Hello, you know, my name is Ali. And someone said, Allie, and I said, Sure. And at the time, it was just such a desire to want to assimilate. I didn't want to stand out, I didn't want people to think anything less of me, because already I didn't know anybody. I was in a new country, new school, new new everything. Um, and so I thought it would be bothersome to correct people on my name. And I just, you know, I remember my parents being really confused when I would call my friends on the phone and say, Hello, you know, this is alley. And they'd be like, Why are you saying that? There was a wall, you know, that that's just what they call me at school. That's just, you know, that's just my name and English. And, you know, my parents were kind of confused about it. But um, I think for a long time, you know, even just hearing you say, you know, as you walk into your room, it's very obvious. You're a tall, dark black man. I am not. In fact, a lot of times people just assume that I'm white and that I'm just another nice Southern girl and being called Alli allowed me to be masked even further. And as I even went And earlier with, especially in the south, there's just such a negative connotation to the word Mexican. Like there's, there's a physical reaction, when somebody says that word unless it's followed by food. Mexican food is the only way that that doesn't provide some sort of visceral reaction. But when you're talking about the people of Mexican descent, or Mexican immigrants, there's just such such a negative connotation. And I didn't want to be associated with that for a really long time. And it wasn't until right after I graduated college, I went back to Mexico for like two months to be with my family, who still lives over there. And I realized how much of my identity was actually tied to my Mexican upbringing. And I felt so lost. And I felt like, I mean, I felt this way because I was doing it. But I was masking a huge part of who I am, and of my own identity. And I realized how absolutely ridiculous it was that I was going by an entirely different name, simply because, I mean, Americans were mostly white folks couldn't be bothered to learn to say a name that wasn't within their immediate context. And so, you know, it's funny, even now, when I go through the process of trying to tell somebody my name, you know, it's kind of a song and dance of No, Hello, my name is Alia. Oh, alley? I see. No, it's hardly, It's short for Alcantara. Almost always, truly nine times out of 10. Somebody will immediately respond with Oh, wow, that's beautiful. And to me, it's kind of a euphemism for Oh, wow, that's exotic or Oh, wow, that's foreign. And the reason I think this is because it's Anaconda is just the Spanish version of Alexandra. And I can almost guarantee you that nine out of those 10 people wouldn't say, oh, wow, that's beautiful. If a girl introduced herself as Alexandra Bye, but that's a whole different story. But, um, but yeah, it's been this journey of finding my own identity and realizing that, you know, my identity starts with my name. And if somebody can't see my name, they're stripping my identity, human humanity and mexicanus from me, and, you know, to your prior question around, how do I even you know, bring my identity and my, my racial identity to work or to the work that I do? It now starts with my name.

Bethaney Wilkinson  17:44

Wow, yeah, I don't think I don't remember ever asking you that whole story before. And so I appreciate you sharing it. And I think it's such a powerful lesson both for those who are listening and who have been tempted to downplay their real name or the truth of who they are. Like, I think this story is an invitation for more people to step into their identities. And it's also an opportunity for those who are listening, who don't have that experience, to be more thoughtful and to take more care and how and how we use the names of people. And just I think you're so right, that so much of our identity is tied to our names, our culture's our state, our stories, our families, and it's a real opportunity in the workplace, even like in an everyday environment to honor the dignity of those around us. And so, thank you so much for offering that story up to us because I just I just really appreciate it. I want to switch gears a little bit and talk specifically about the equity imperative and Gosh, I just love that title. And Shawn, can you kick us off with telling the listeners what this report is and why your team creative? it?

Deshawn Adams  18:57

Yeah, happy to with also say Ale Feel free to join in? Because Yeah, I think as a collective, yeah, we definitely spent a lot of time thinking about essentially how not just respond to what was happening within the society, you know, around the fact that you know, of course, doors boy was kill we, you know, our brain was killed during 2020. You know, there was just so much happening from the even, you know, brutality in the AAPI community, and then compounded by the COVID pandemic, which sort of exacerbated a lot of the, you know, inequities that we already knew existed in the healthcare system, essentially, we started to roll our sleeves up and think about like, what can we actually, you know, say in the market, from Deloitte perspective, that wouldn't be provocative. You know, that would be memorable, but also a point of view that would help and encourage business leaders to think about the role that they played. As it relates to racial equity specifically, I would also say, you know, for context, a lot of the research that we conducted was mostly US based. So we interviewed 50 leaders, you know, both internal to Deloitte as well as some changemakers, who were really, you know, practitioners from the public, private and social sectors, people like the CEO of Walmart. So Doug mcmillon, Valerie Jarrett is an examples a senior adviser to President Obama, she also sits on the board of lift, which I thought was super dope, and lots of other leaders just to get their perspectives around, you know, how do we think about not just this moment, but also sort of amplifies the need to create a more equitable business community, or workplace, I should say, as we think about, you know, our role as the business community. So that was the intent of what we started to think about, I would say earlier on, we knew that we wanted to, you know, not just bring perspective, but really encourage action. And so a lot of what we outline in the report is a combination of the research that we conducted internally, as well as with the change maker leaders, but also some actions like real life situations that, you know, business leaders should think about, based on the seat that they sit in, I would also add, you know, lastly, that the awesome part about it is that Deloitte, you know, certainly brings a global perspective to the business community. So we are, you know, a big four firm, we have partnerships with many of the Fortune 500 companies, in America, and for every sector industry, that you can think of a name, we have a hand in it. So in terms of the power, you know, we really thought as leaders, like what have we came out, you know, thinking about these, you know, these issues that we were facing, understanding the historical context that even got us to this point, and then ideated, upon what future scenarios might look like, for, you know, for the business community. So we broke it up, you know, really thinking about sort of what is the next 10 to 15 years look like, and used methodology called scenario planning, to really think about some of the four scenarios along the way, which, of course, I'll let I'll lay dive into those as a strategy consultant. But that wasn't just Bethany of the of the report. I was, you know, lastly, say that, personally, you know, I was involved, because I wanted to not just have a perspective of, oh, my god, there's a lot happening, there's a lot of noise being created. And I'm, you know, tend to be the person that's constructively dissatisfied with progress. So, I'm, the person that's reading a report is like, Okay, this is great, I've heard this before, companies aren't really going to change, they're not really going to take action. And by the way, like, nice research. So personally, I wanted to just make sure that, you know, not just my voice was representative, but also using some of the perspectives that we had learned and a lot of the client work that we interact with day to day, so can definitely unpack much, much more. But that was really the intent of the report. And I think, you know, ultimately, what was really, you know, what I've been really excited about is that that has actually had an impact on how CEOs, Chief Diversity and Inclusion officers, you know, talent organizations, you know, product and marketing teams have really started to think about, you know, what role they play and how they can, you know, really change and transform, you know, their businesses from a racial equity perspective. Yeah, absolutely.

Bethaney Wilkinson  23:43

Ali, would you add anything?

Ale Trevino  23:45

Yeah, if I could just add, I mean, I think just trying to cover it. So, so well, and I think the context of it is so, so important. The the only two things that I would add that I think really, were central to what we were trying to do is one, transform, long held beliefs, which we now love to call, you know, breaking down orthodoxies and breaking down traditional behaviors, which, you know, even meant challenging business leaders to recognize their own role in this. I think, oftentimes, you know, many business leaders believe that it's government's role to do a lot of this, which, you know, as Sean mentioned, and we talked about a year and who said, you know, actually, no government's role is to set the floor and business leaders need to push further. And I think a lot of times they business leaders also think that it just sits within, you know, their workforce, and in fact, they have so much more power and influence to effect change. And the second point that I would make is that I would the report, something that we we discovered and eventually became core to our, to our point of view, and the argument we were trying to make is that it's actually beyond their diversity and inclusion, those things. Great, great things. However, as the title talks about, it's about equity. equity is an outcome. And what we're looking for is is outcomes results, result oriented action, that would really, really make a difference, right? businesses have been focusing on diversity and inclusion for decades. And the report really breaks down what that has brought, which I mean, yes, there's been some progress. But when we really think about transformational change, that hasn't happened. And that's because we haven't been focused on the outcome of equity. And I think that the the report was just really, really, really focused on challenging business leaders to think, think beyond where they've been in the past few decades.

Bethaney Wilkinson  25:45

Yeah, something, something I really appreciated or appreciate about the support is how your team so clearly laid out this, this disparity in equity, right. So like, there are all these things I know, like we feel on our bodies, but we don't have like the statistical data to back it up. So for example, for the listeners, a couple of stats shared in the report is that among all US companies with 100 or more employees, black people hold just 3% of executive or senior level roles. And the other one is that only 1% of venture capital backed entrepreneurs are black. And this one really stuck out to me too, which is that while 61% of white households own equity in the stock market, only 31% of black households do. So that's just a few, a few of the data points that you offer in this report. And I'm I'm wondering, with data like this in mind, what role specifically do business leaders play in achieving racial equity? And I would add, why do you think racial equity hasn't been at the forefront in the past? Like if diversity and inclusion have been in the mix? And on the table? Why has equity kind of fallen to the wayside? So that's two questions, what role do business leaders play? And then why do you think they haven't played that role up until this point, either one of you can jump in?

Ale Trevino  27:07

I'm happy to kick that off. So I think, to your point around the or the first question on what role business leaders play, so that kind of is the the third part of this report in which we introduce the equity activation model in which we argue that there are three spheres of influence that every business has. So that's the workplace, the marketplace and society. And so within those, you know, in the workplace, we think about the whole talent lifecycle, right, and how you're attained, attaining your talent, how you're advancing them, retaining them all that in marketplace, you see things such as your supply chain, your procurement, all of your marketing and sales. And in this society, we talk around government policy, and their involvement with the community. Right. And so I think a lot of times business leaders think, okay, I can really only focus on hiring diverse talent, right. I think that has been the core focus of business businesses in the past decades, when we think around what their initiatives are within Dei, and they haven't really thought about, you know, are my products and services, promoting equity, right? Or how are they actually potentially having really inequitable impact on certain communities. And I think that is a huge, huge role for business to to recognize their own power and influence on so many different aspects of society, of culture of behaviors in, in our day to day activities. After all, we're very capitalistic society, right? We consume a lot of products, we consume a lot of services and business businesses and business leaders have a huge place in that. And so I think the first step for them is to recognize how much power and influence they have, across those three spheres of influence. And, you know, my recommendation starting here that this is kind of where the report starts breaking down some recommendations for specific options is, you know, looking at your spheres of influence and going from there. Do your question around, you know, why have we not focus on equity before? I think, I think up until this point, a lot of people focused on equality, right, treating everybody the exact same, whereas equity necessitates looking at historical backgrounds, historical inequities, and actually providing people different things that they might need. So, you know, if I were to over simplified it's, you know, the difference between the golden rule versus the Platinum rule. The Golden Rule says treat others how you want to be treated versus the Platinum rule says Treat others how they want to be treated. Right. And so it's, it's really thinking about what does each person need, so that we can all end up at the same outcome versus equality starts with providing everybody that you x the exact same things.

Bethaney Wilkinson  30:20

Yeah, great breakdown. I don't know if I've ever heard the golden versus Platinum roll thing that is so good. Deshawn, what do you thinking?

Deshawn Adams  30:30

Yeah, with the only thing I'd add to that is, you know, to the role around like, what, what role does business leaders play in sort of like, why has it taken so long, one of the things we talked about in the report as well is like just this idea that anti oppression needs to be at the forefront of conversations, as we think about equity. So the way we defined it in the paper is talking about diversity and inclusion as like two important pieces of equity, but ultimately won't get you to the outcomes that you intend. So we say, hey, you've got to look at not just your diversity and inclusion goals, but also think about ways to challenge and tie, you're really challenged a lot of the oppressive ways that your managers are on boarded, and ultimately create a culture within your company, you've got to think about the ways in which a person experiences your talent journey. So thinking about how a person you know steps a foot into your company, and what programs, systems and structures you have in place to develop them as talent. And then most importantly, like even thinking about, you know, how your product and their users interact together to either enhance, you know, equity, or really kind of chip away at it, in terms of what impact is making on one society that whole as a large and large Excuse me? So I think that's really one of the things that we talked about in terms of like, how do we make sure that all of this work is coming together? I would say, the role that business leaders play is really sort of where I spend a lot of my time today. So the most transparent answer I would say is, a lot of companies came up with initiatives and efforts that said, Hey, we're going to invest, you know, millions of dollars to, you know, bringing on, you know, black talent as an example, or we are going to make sure that our products and services are more inclusive. What I think, you know, based on the work that I see day in and day out is that a lot of these leaders aren't thinking about this, you know, and not really thinking about it as a holistic approach. And one of the things that I always say is, you know, these system level issues really require systems level change. And what I found is that a lot of the infrastructure in place, even as I think about, so I spend a lot of my time in the talent space. But even as we think about, you know, the talent space, a lot of the systems and processes in place, are not actually the infrastructure that's needed to really build equity and make sure that that's centered across the entire journey for people who work at these companies. So I would say like, that's definitely the gap that I've seen, in terms of like, What's taking so long, why are companies struggling? It's because they've committed to a lot of these things with their mouth and with their reports, but really don't have a lot of the infrastructure in place to support that long term view, to really get them to where really, their employees want them to go.

Bethaney Wilkinson  33:36

Yeah, okay. So I'm wondering how you would respond to someone who says, Okay, listen, we're a company, we exist to make millions of dollars. equity is just not just can't be a part of that vision, like, how do you respond to people who think that way? Or have that idea? And Ale, I saw that you unmuted. Maybe you're going to jump in with something. But that's the question that came to mind after both of you shared.

Ale Trevino  34:04

Well, I said that they're not mutually exclusive. First of all, I think a lot of times people think that focusing on equity means that you're not focusing on profits, which I just think is ridiculous. And in fact, in the report, we talk a little bit around on how focusing on equity actually would lead to more profits and access to a lot more revenue, right. Like if I think there's a few statistics and they're talking about how if we were to focus on equity from just like, getting the the number of black Americans who currently are underemployed, up to the level where they should be, that's hundreds of 1000s If not, I think millions or billions of dollars of consumer spending that could be done there. Um, so that's, that's the piece that I would throw in there. The other just like quick side To track or rewind to what deshawn was saying that, I think, is also really important to mention. I think a lot of times people are in businesses specifically don't realize that a lot of times, businesses essentially will have these policies that seem neutral and are neutral in, in theory, right and in parentheses if I were to put it but they have a lot of inequitable outcomes, or inequitable impact. And I think that is a huge barrier. Because when people when businesses are implementing policies, they'll say, Oh, you know, this isn't a racist policy, or it's not an oppressive policy, because it doesn't, it's seemingly neutral. But when their impacts or it are or their outcomes are inequitable, then the policy itself or the system itself is oppressive, or the system itself is inequitable. And I think that's another huge gap just to, to go back. And again, I think if you're more specific question, I think, when those systems and policies are addressed, from one angle, right, your workers who are, you know, fulfilled within their, their company, or they can feel belonging within their company, there's that much more productive, and can actually help the company be that much more effective and therefore profitable. Um, also back to the other point around your consumers, right? If you are as a business are focused on, you know, providing more access to or more equitable access to resources, whether that be money, healthcare, you know, whatever you name it, then those consumers also are able to have greater access to wealth to accumulated wealth, and therefore greater spending, and therefore, again, more profits. And, you know, my response to those people who say, Well, you know, if I focus, you know, my focus is is money, money, money, and why should I focus on profit? Give me the business case, I don't think that there should ever be a business case for equity. Right? It is the human rights, right thing to do. However, again, the simplified version would be that they're not mutually exclusive. But I will step off my soapbox now.

Bethaney Wilkinson  37:28

I love that. I love that and you came at you came quick with it, too. You're like, Listen, Bethany, those two things are not mutually exclusive. And I love it. I love it. Deshawn, do you have anything you wanted to add?

Deshawn Adams  37:39

Yeah, I was just gonna say quick. To add on to what Ale already mentioned, like, it's super expensive to not be thinking about equity, like one of the reports that we looked at and side of the equity imperative, you know, we found a number that said that essentially racism is cost the global, or excuse me, the American economy $16 trillion over the past two decades. And so Citigroup, I want to say is the bank that put out a loan report, that was very well researched, talking about some of the some of the discriminatory policies, that companies, you know, from the housing market, and like so many different factors that led to that $16 trillion number. But ultimately, you know, that certainly is a great business case to say, hey, you may not think that is on your radar shouldn't be on your radar, but it is still costing your company in some way. So I would highly encourage people to go check that one out. That was one of the numbers where I, when I thought, wow, like $16 trillion, a lot of money. And that's usually the first thing you hear out of business leaders mouths, we don't have time to focus on it, or we don't know where to start. The second thing I'd say, you know, just add on quickly, is the fact that, you know, expectations from consumers, as well as workers, as well as investors are constantly evolving and changing. And so there's, again, tons of data in the report when we talk about, you know, Gen Z, and millennials expectations from a consumer perspective. You know, I believe the number is somewhere around 94% are expecting companies to really think about and talk about, or I should say, really to take a stand a clear stand, by the way, and where they sit with a lot of the issues like Black Lives Matter. And then workers, you know, we're really having a more larger expectation about how they connected to others who identified as the same, you know, identity markers within their company. So in other words, people are not going to go to a company if there's not any black people that supporting and refining and developing them as a black person. And if there's no, you know, belonging groups, to make sure that they feel like they are part of that overarching culture and company like, personally, I'm not even getting signed up for it. And then even this expectation from an investor's perspective, like we also talked about the fact that, you know, investors are really changing how they You know, form their perspectives on where these companies sit today. So lots to be unpacked around like board diversity and other issues that really need to be at the forefront there. But I would say expectations are changing. And no matter where you set in the C suite, especially as a business leader, even if you're not in the C suite, right, even in middle management, you are, we all have a role to play.

Bethaney Wilkinson  40:24

Yeah. And I gosh, I love you stating explicitly that there is a cost to doing nothing. I was talking to a nonprofit President yesterday. And he was explaining that one of his challenges and recruiting talent is that he has an open, if he has an opening, his network is all white. And he has a time crunch. So he's just trying to fill the role. And he's like, it cost us too much to slow down to expand our network to fill these roles right now. And while I empathize with that plight, and that difficulty, I had to let him know like, hey, yeah, but there's a cost to you not expanding your network, like you are delaying your progress in your goals related to diversity, inclusion and equity. And I think people don't always pause to consider what are like I'm generating an outcome now with the way I'm doing things, and this is the outcome that I want to continue into the future? Or do I want to stop and reimagine this? Because there's a cost to not to not changing, there's a cost to doing to doing nothing. I'm curious, before we getting to the lightning round, this is my last maybe my last question, I might have more depending on what y'all say. But I'm thinking about many of our listeners today and how they're not necessarily in the C suite, or in these executive level leadership roles. But they do care really deeply about seeing change happen and about advocating for equity, for racial equity, specifically from whatever role they're in. And so I'm curious what words of advice or encouragement would you give to people who are in charge, but they have a degree of influence, and they want to make a difference in their workplace?

Ale Trevino  42:08

I think you, you, you hit exactly what I was gonna say around, you know, we all have our own spheres of influence, right, and might not be the entirety of a business. But, you know, we all have people within our circles or policies within our reach, or have communities that we interact with that we can, you know, start challenging these long held beliefs, these orthodoxies or challenging behaviors, right, exactly as you did, right of saying, Okay, yeah, sure there's a cost to leaving this empty. But hey, have you considered that there's also cost not doing it? Right? I think that kind of approach to everything that we do, right, rather than going through our daily routines, following the status quo is, you know, challenging the way that we're doing things of No, oh, well, you know, this is our culture, this is the way we always do things. And, you know, I think each one of us has the power and influence to, you know, stop, pause, and mindfully, thoughtfully ask, Well, you know, why? Or, Hey, have you thought about, you know, potentially doing it this different way? Or have you thought about the flip side of the concern or the risk that you are outlining? So that'd be one thing. The other thing that I would say, and Bethany, this, I feel like you bring this up a lot, as well as this is the sisal journey that we're on. And, you know, it might, it likely will not be solved within our lifetimes, which, on one hand means, you know, requires sustained commitment. But on the other hand, it also means that because this is a marathon, and not a quick sprint of, you know, five initiatives in a workshop, it means that it's okay to take a break when you're feeling exhausted, you know, this is exhausting work. This is emotionally taxing work. And it needs to be done. We need to do it, but we also need to take care of ourselves. And so I would encourage anybody taking on this work and on this challenge to Yes, go do and then take a break, and then go and do again and then take another break.

Bethaney Wilkinson  44:27

Yeah. Oh, that's great. What about you to shine? What would you encourage people to do?

Deshawn Adams  44:33

Yeah, I'm gonna go with a different kind of response by saying like, remain deeply reflective on why you think this work is important. And be very, you know, at certain stages, be very cautious about just doing a lot of activity that is exhausting for you personally. And the reason I say that is because I'm the type of person that's always like, man, like, this is a huge issue, it's a complex issue, there's so much work to be done like, I can do so much to affect change. At the same time, I'm learning really quickly, like Yo, this shine, you didn't need to calm down, bro. Like, there's only so much you can do within even as we've talked about within your sphere of influence. And so what I've actually had to really challenge myself to think about is like, and this is also when I would encourage others to do is really think about the type the kind of impact you want to make. And, you know, couple that with also, again, the influence. So we've talked about mentioned that piece of pizza mentioned that piece quite a bit. So I kind of tend to think about like, Where do I have impact. So within my family starting, there's usually a good place, well, starting within yourself is a great place. And then thinking about like, you know, the communities, places that you show up to Ali's point, right? So thinking about, like, Where do I show up? Where do I see, you know, places that I can actually influence and make a change in difference. But then also this piece around? Like, what type of impact do you want to make? I don't think everybody's called to make, you know, drastic systems level change if they don't choose to. So in some cases, even in my own journey, and career, like that's look like, Hey, I don't have responsibility for anyone out. So I'm not managing anyone, also, and like just hired to this new company, as an intern, you know, when I was, you know, thinking eight years ago, and I don't really know what my voice is, I don't really know what I have to say. But I would say, you know, have the courage to take that first step to explore, remaining constructively dissatisfied, as I probably mentioned, way too many times. So what I mean by that is, hey, yeah, there's a lot of progress that we've made. As a society, there's a lot of progress, even that sometimes we have to, you know, acknowledge within our family members, like, yeah, cool. You don't make blatant racist remarks at the dinner table anymore. Or, you know, hey, you're not making a misogynistic comment, even though you're my homeboy, right? We're not allowed to have those conversations. So I would say like, all of those experiences collectively, right? Think about the type of impact you want to make the type of influence that you have, and really trying from that, from that place, really, you know, clearly identify like, what are the actual tangible steps that you take from a three for the next three to six months? As an example, and really thinking about that, and constantly going back to Hey, am I making the type of change that I want to bring about? So I know I just said a lot. But like, ultimately, like, yo, it varies for everybody. And so if anybody out there that's like, super confused of where to start, you in a lot of cases should be, but don't let that discourage you.

Bethaney Wilkinson  47:38

Yeah, well, something that I appreciate. I keep saying that I appreciate because I do I, I really love how for both of you, as I've watched your journeys over the years, even though you haven't all haven't had it all figured out, you keep showing up to the work, you keep showing up to the questions, you keep showing up to the community spaces where people are trying to do something about it. And I think that's what we all have to do. It's not that we figure it out. It's not that, you know, the whole world changes overnight, but we keep showing up in community with other people who are trying to address and solve these problems. And I think as we continue to link arms in that way, I don't know I think we'll look back over our lifetime and see, see that we have made a difference. But it is that slow. That slow work. It's communal work. It's not individual. And we have to take breaks because I mean, that's that's the only way we last. Are y'all ready for the lightning round? Let's do it. Yay. Okay, so I guess let's be pre determined in order ally, you can go first and then to Shawn. Just so you know, because I want it to be a lightning round. Does that sound good? Sounds great. Cool. Okay, what's your favorite story of all time? I love the frog and toad series. All those little stories are just so so great.

Deshawn Adams  48:59

Nice. Oh, this is actually kind of embarrassing, but Diary of a Wimpy Kid. Right. I love that growing up.

Bethaney Wilkinson  49:10

Oh, that's great. What's the last book you read and loved? The Midnight library.

Deshawn Adams  49:20

And for me, I would say black magic by a man named Chad Sanders talking about what black leaders learn from trauma and triumph in corporate America.

Bethaney Wilkinson  49:30

Oh my gosh, okay. Sounds so great. Um, if you could have dinner with one person, someone who is alive or dead, who would you choose?

Ale Trevino  49:39

Well, I do Jane Austen, just because she's such a radical feminist and incredible storyteller, and it's just such powerful tools. Wow, great answer. 

Bethaney Wilkinson  49:48

Deshawn?

Deshawn Adams  49:49

Okay. This is a left wing answer, but like honestly Tupac.

Bethaney Wilkinson  49:57

So great. Name one song that would be on the soundtrack to your life.

Ale Trevino  50:03

Okay, I do either La Vida Es Un Carnival, because life is a carnival, or truly anything Had Bunny, because I freaking love him.

Bethaney Wilkinson  50:12

I think I knew that. Deshawn?

Deshawn Adams  50:16

I would just keep it up like gangster rap, Keep Your Head Up by Tupac. The reason I say like, a quick backstory, I found a video over the weekend, it was 1994. So it was 1993 and I was a baby in diapers, they had me dancing to Keep Your Head Up by Tupac. And I was like, on brand.

Bethaney Wilkinson  50:37

Last question, how can everyday people close the gap between their good intentions for diversity and true cultural change?

Ale Trevino  50:45

Oh, okay, I would say we kind of talked around this, but I would say shift the focus to impact. So good intentions, I feel like usually focus on our actions that make us feel good. So this is kind of what Johnny were saying earlier, but like they've rarely focused on or intentions really focused on the downstream impact. And so if we're saying that equity is an outcome, then the shift to looking for those outcomes that are truly equitable, will help push beyond just good intentions. How about you Deshawn?

Deshawn Adams  51:16

Oh, that's good. I don't even know if I have anything to add to that. Oh, that's good. Oh, I'm gonna, this is gonna sound like an intention. But definitely translate into action, I would just say like, continue to, you know, ask questions with the intent to find truth. And the more experiences and people that you talk to, that helps you get closer to like, whatever truth is, and that way, like action on them, right? And take a step, take whatever the courageous, bold step that you really don't want to take to get there. And also make sure you're connecting with people who are already doing great work, right. So to your point, Bethany about showing up in community, like, continue to show up finding community of people around you who are also doing dumping great work, especially as it relates to equity. And just keep doing that. And hopefully we all as a collective, you know, not just move the needle bag, throw it out the window and transform systems, you know, really think about the long haul.

Bethaney Wilkinson  52:12

Yeah, so much wisdom. Thanks so much to both of you for your time for your brilliance. Yeah, I'm just You're the best. I have the best friends. You're incredible. Thanks for being with us.

Ale Trevino  52:24

Oh, my gosh, thank you for having us. It was an honor, a pleasure, a privilege. And I will happily always come back even if this was super fun. Thanks.

Bethaney Wilkinson  52:40

Thank you for listening to this episode of the diversity gap podcast. One of the ideas I'm still sitting with from this conversation with Sean and LA is that pursuing profits and pursuing racial equity are not mutually exclusive opportunities. They're not mutually exclusive things. It's not, it's not a zero sum game, we can do both things. I'm just really challenged by this idea and I hope that you were to as you are preparing to go into the rest of your day, I hope that you would consider checking out the diversity gap book over at WWW dot the diversity gap.com and that you would also consider sponsoring our work over on Patreon. The links to both of these things are in the show notes. And until next time, friends, may your good intentions for diversity lead to true cultural change. Thanks