Impact Over Intentions - A Conversation w/ Terence Lester

Insight: The impact of your organizational culture on people of color is more important than your good intentions for diversity.
Action: Prioritize hearing, believing, and following the leadership of people of color. Follow the lead of those most impacted by the problem.

Terence is a speaker, an activist, an author and thought leader on systemic poverty. He’s known for nationwide campaigns that bring awareness to issues surrounding homelessness and economic inequality. His awareness campaigns have been featured on MLK50, CNN, Good Morning America, TVONE, Creative Mornings, USA Today, NBC, AJC, Black Enterprise, Rolling Out, Upworthy, and have been viewed by millions of people worldwide.

In 2013, Terence founded the non-profit “Love Beyond Walls” and has helped hundreds of individuals experiencing homelessness and poverty to rebuild their lives. In 2019, Terence launched the Dignity Museum, the first shipping container museum in the U.S. specifically dedicated telling the stories of people who’ve experienced homelessness.

Terence has written six books, and his new book, “When We Stand: The Power Of Seeking Justice Together,” released in May. He also holds four degrees and is working towards his Ph.D. at Union Institute & University in Public Policy & Social Change.

So clearly, Terence is someone who has so much to teach us. But what I loved most about this conversation was how Terence pulled from his personal story and lived experiences to illuminate the nuances of living in a racialized society. This is a stellar conversation. Enjoy!

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Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, experiencing, person, diversity, talking, homelessness, book, story, color, question, conversation, racial identity, good intentions, community, organizations, life, trauma, impoverishment, journey, justice

SPEAKERS

Bethaney Wilkinson, Terence Lester

Bethaney Wilkinson  00:00

Hey, did you know you can officially preorder my book. It's called the diversity gap where good intentions meet true cultural change. If you are struggling to pair your good intentions for organizational diversity with thoughtful, human centered and story driven practices, then this book is for you, and the book I share eight key insights and actions you can engage to create a diverse and liberating organizational culture. I also share some personal stories in the research I've done over the past three years about why diversity gaps exist and how everyday people can close them. It is good stuff and I'm so excited to share it with all of you. Visit www dot the diversity gap. com to pre order your copy today. Welcome to the diversity gap podcast. This is the book edition. My name is Bethany Wilkinson, and I am your host. All right. All right. Welcome to another episode of the diversity gap podcast, the book edition. This is our second episode in this series. And for those of you who are new to what we're doing here, over the next few weeks, I'll be sharing conversations with friends around the themes of my book. And today we are on chapter two, which is all about impact over intentions. Now for each chapter, there is one key insight and one key action. The main insight for chapter two is that the impact of your organizational culture on people of color is more important than your good intentions for diversity. I'll say it one more time, the impact the felt impact of your organizational culture on people of color on real humans with real stories, real family's real ambitions, the way they feel in your workplace environment, the way they're experiencing justice and equity and diversity, their experience the impact of your organizational culture is all more important than your good intentions. So what is our action item here? Our action item is to prioritize hearing, believing and following the leadership of people of color. We have to follow the lead of those most impacted by the problem we have to hear and amplify their stories center their experiences, and adapt all of our D AI programming to make sure that the impact of that programming is a positive one. Now today's conversation fits this chapters theme perfectly. I had the pleasure of sitting down with Terence Lester Terence is a speaker and activist and author and thought leader on systemic poverty. He's known nationwide for campaigns that bring awareness to issues surrounding homelessness and economic inequality. His awareness campaigns have been featured all over the place on MLK 50 cnn Good Morning America, creative mornings, USA Today, NBC AJC black enterprise, so many places. These campaigns have really been viewed by millions of people around the world. In 2013, Terrance founded the nonprofit love beyond walls, and has helped hundreds of individuals experiencing homelessness and poverty to rebuild their lives. And then 2019 Terrance launched the dignity Museum, the first shipping container Museum in the US specifically dedicated to telling the stories of people who've experienced homelessness. Terrence has written six books and his new book when we stand the power of seeking justice together, released back in May. He also holds four degrees and is working towards his PhD at Union Institute University in public policy and social change. So clearly, for so many reasons. Terrence is someone who has a ton to teach us. But what I loved most about this conversation was how Terrance pulled from his personal story, and lived experiences to illuminate the nuances we're facing as we live in a racialized society. This is a stellar conversation full of so much wisdom. I hope you enjoy it. All right, everyone. I'm so excited to have Terrence Lester here with us today. Organizational leader, founder of love beyond walls, author of a couple of books, which I'll let him tell you about later on in our conversation today. But Terence, I'm really happy you're here with us.

Terence Lester  04:40

I'm happy to be here. It's really good to have this conversation with you and I'm excited about our top.

Bethaney Wilkinson  04:47

Awesome. Well, let's kick this off with our first question, which is the first question I asked everyone that I talked to and I want to know, when did you first become aware of your racial or ethnic identity?

Terence Lester  05:00

Yeah, that's a great question. Well, I first want to acknowledge that, you know, I've recently learned over the last few years that, you know, black children actually encounter race conversations a lot earlier than some of some of our peers have other ethnic or nationality. And it wasn't, it was, it was about nine years old, when I realized that I was a black boy. And that happened with a number of reasons and ways. I was around my uncles, and my cousins. And my father and my uncle started to talk about a police encounter that they both had. And they both turned to us, myself and my cousins, and started to talk to us about the things that we would possibly experience. When we walk into department stores, I learned later learn that this was actually the talk, the talk that many young black boys have with their uncles, or grandfathers or guardians, etc. And they said things to me, like, you know, if you go into a store, keep your hands out of your pocket. Or, if you are about to purchase something, make sure that your your money is visible, or, you know, don't go into the store, when it's many of you, make sure you kind of stay, separate it and go in smaller numbers, if anyone stops you, or tries to talk to you asked to call your your parent, you know, and it was these real, like strong words coming from men, and I had no clue as to really what they were talking about other than they said that I could possibly be treated differently because of the color of my skin. And, you know, I started to learn that, you know, racial identity happens, you know, and kind of like five stages for persons of color, you have the pre encounter stage when, you know, you're, you're encountering whiteness, or, you know, this white aesthetic, and you really don't know you're trying to figure out how to assimilate in certain places, maybe a school etc. You're trying to figure out how do you fit in, and then there may be in a counter, right? This encounter phase, when you have a series of events that may happen to you, that actually lets you know that you have an racial identity, right? That your life could be impacted in some way by racism. And then there's the immersion, or immersion stage, when you start to figure out that you want to be surrounded or identify with symbols or things that kind of speak to your own cultural identity. And then there's the internalization phase, and then the commitment phase. And I think, at any given point, we all kind of move through those phases. But yeah, that was my first induction into realizing that I was a black boy, that would grow into a black man.

Bethaney Wilkinson  08:38

Yeah, that's, yes, I hear you I on a couple of fronts. They're number one, in my interviews with other black people, as compared to my conversations with white people, I find that Yeah, for many of the black people and other people of color I interview, our stories of being aware of our racial identity start when we are 4569, just like you described, where for many of my white peers and thought leaders that I've been interviewing, many of some of them didn't even really think critically about race until they were well into their 20s for some of them. And so it's a really, I think, that really sets us up for some tricky conversations and experiences and our contemporary moment as we're trying to figure out, what does it mean to build beloved community? What does that mean to build cross racial community as we're trying to see the world be a more equitable place? I also really resonate with the stages of identity development. That's been a big part of my research lately, as well. And so for anyone who's listening, if you aren't familiar with the stages of racial identity development, both for people of color and my people, I highly encourage you to check those out. But for Terrance, I'm wondering, how is your racial background? If at all, how is it How has it informed the work you're doing today? Maybe How has it shaped your trajectory? Do you see any correlations or overlap there?

Terence Lester  10:04

Yeah, I think that it happened in a number of ways. It was both personal and intellectual. And so I grew up and, you know, in parvis neighborhood, you know, remember, liquor stores being on every corner. dialysis centers, being, you know, within two to three miles apart from one another, in many ways, not not realizing that I was living in a food desert. And I saw my mom work really hard. And my father tried his best to, you know, make something out of out of nothing on his entrepreneurship journey. But I started to question early on, like, Why are things the way that they are in my neighborhood? And why was I experiencing this, this type of impoverishment? And so it led me down a journey where I have this this personal struggle or suffering, if you will, that I'm going through, but also like this intellectual formation of starting to question, you know, why is this like this? Why Why is it on certain part or in certain parts of the city, or the state? or wherever you live? There are, you know, better grocery stores, better schools, you know, better access to different things. And why is it that, you know, people that look like me in my neighborhood, don't really have access to that. And so I started to ask questions from my grandpa, my parents, and my grandfather actually was the one that really gave me like this oral history of what he had experienced. Growing up, he talked to me about segregation, how he drank from water fountains that had color on the top of them, he told he talked to me about how, you know, his, his grandmother didn't even have the ability to read and he talked to me about his run ins with the KKK. He talked to me about, you know, redlining, and cointelpro, and Jim Crow ism, and all of these things. And it started to Create in me, this desire to want to change the world around me. And I started to look towards, you know, key figures in the civil rights movement, like Hosea Williams and, you know, banger Rustin. Ella Baker, I was inspired by the story of Mamie to who courageously reveal her son's bloated body in a casket and publicize this as a way of showing America what racism does to the bodies of young children, violently Fannie Lou Hamer, Daisy Bates, all of these figures, who chose to live their lives in ways to make this world a better place, but also to fight for equality and equity amongst black people in this country, and so it was both intellectual and personal. I was on one hand experiencing impoverishment. There was a time when I experienced homelessness for a brief moment in my teenage years, but also like having these intentional conversations with people that I admired and receiving this oral history which piqued my interest to start doing my own independent research and scholarship.

Bethaney Wilkinson  14:15

Yeah, wow, that's so it's so good and powerful to hear. Just to hear how it's not just intellectual like how this, this work has a deep resonance in your personal experience and your family's experience. I'm curious as you consider the cultural moment we're in right now, even today, as we're recording right now. It's mid April 2021. When you think about this current moment related to race and injustice, what is it that you think leaders should be focused on in the context of their own organizations as it relates to addressing issues and issues related to race and racism? I know that's kind of a jump from your personal story to to the public. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Terence Lester  15:04

Yeah, it's a great question. If I can be honest, the moment that we're in is, is very heavy for many persons of color. we've witnessed Asian American and Pacific Islanders experience the trauma from a mass shooting. We've seen black bodies killed by police officers. And we've also witnessed just here recently the the verdict. And George George Floyd's murder from a police officer. And, you know, I think there is this, this collective trauma that is happening to persons of color, where it's it's a it's a deep pain, not only is it generational, but it's this this racialized trauma that we experienced, even if it's somebody that is, is not our sister, or cousin. It triggers and reminds us of the entire journey that we've, you know, had to journey through since we first landed here and 1619, in Jamestown, Virginia, right. And so it's this everyday struggle. And I think one of the things that leaders should be focused on right now is not attacking, but having this ability to speak up and tell the truth. And when I say the truth, I mean, the whole truth about where we are in our current climate, about where have where we've been, but also how our history informs this present moment, I think there also needs to be this deep sense of accountability, where we, by which have these conversations, where they are not controlled or dominated simply by white people, right, I think that more black people and persons of color should be given their sense of empowerment, you know, often times talking about how, you know, persons of color are often oftentimes invited to to a table to have these racial discussions, whether it be on diversity or inclusion. But in many cases, persons of color are expected to leave, you know, a part of themselves at the door, right. And many times, being invited to the table and not really given the empowerment at the table to speak up. And I want, you know, white people to even understand that, you know, the very fact that you can invite somebody to this metaphorical table suggests that you still maintain power. And so I would like to even see persons walk and go sit at other people's table, right? That, you know, if you're a person and you're white, and you're on this journey of learning and wanting to become an ally, or fight for racial equality, and equity, that sometimes it's not even about inviting people to your table, you need to go into the community and be proximate to someone else, and sit and listen to someone else's story, to sit and listen to somebody else's wisdom. And I think all of those things right now are so essential. You know, there are times when I'm speaking up about race or the moment, the critical moment that we're in not as a way of being divison, but as a way of educating the public about this deep pain and collective trauma that persons of color are experiencing. And sometimes it is met with healthy conversation. But then there are other times when it's, you know, I'm being attacked, for even sharing my own existential reality, you know, and we got to stop that.

Bethaney Wilkinson  19:25

Yeah. Well, yeah, you touched on so many important parts there. I'm going to try to walk through and ask a couple more questions about them. So I'm thinking about, yeah, I'm thinking about so for, for people of color who are, like you said, experiencing and feeling, you know, this collective trauma about things our communities are facing, as we are showing up to work every day and sitting in you know, team meetings or in boardrooms or even with clients that come from Africa. perspective, a racial perspective that doesn't that doesn't empathize with our experience. What words of encouragement or or affirmation would you have for black people, Asian people, people of color who are trying to keep showing up to work every day, in this current climate? I know, I didn't prepare you for that question. But it's it's one that I have after hearing what you said,

Terence Lester  20:24

Yeah, um, you know, I've, I can kind of share some of what I've been doing to maintain my own sense of health and well being have literally had to limit what I intake. You know, I have a presence online or whatever. And people communicate from all their different mediums. And so like, I've had to limit the things that I'm consuming, and realize, you know, some of the things that may consume may be triggering for me. And so, this journey of like, my own personal self awareness has been really essential. Another thing that I've I've had to do is go to therapy, which is something that is oftentimes seen as something as being weak. But it can also be, you know, something that is very empowering for you, when you get a chance to process your emotions and express yourself, and then get an alternative perspective of what actually transpired. There are many times when you know, a person that you as a person of color may walk into a room and feel anxiety, I think that being aware of that anxiousness and facing what may be for some imposter syndrome, realizing that you belong in those spaces, just as much as your, your your peers, or your colleagues, is another practice that I've had to embody. And then I've had to ramp up my personal self care and in just exercising and keeping my physical body in a in a very healthy space. And I would encourage anybody just to, you know, be aware and be intentional in the ways that you're caring for yourself. Because the greater the crisis, or the trauma that exists in the world, the greater the depth, that you need to go in your rest and your self care. So you can maintain, you know, your own personal well being as you encounter these different experiences in society and culture.

Bethaney Wilkinson  23:00

That's so good. Thanks for breaking down your, your self, I guess, big picture, your self care regimen. I think that's super important for us that we that we do practice caring for ourselves and setting those boundaries. So that we can be well, I'm wondering, kind of it's not exactly a follow up. But when I think about organizations, and when I say organizations, I'm mostly thinking nonprofits and values driven for profit companies as well. Do you think systemic social change is possible in and through these institutions? Why or why not?

Terence Lester  23:41

Man that, I think, I think it is, but I also think that it it falls on the shoulders of people in leadership. I've been around organizations, and I've seen you know, persons of color, get paid less, right. I've been in spaces where, you know, I was a communicator, and my pay was significantly less than some of my white peers. Right. When, you know, I may have even more education. I think there needs to be some sense of accountability there. And we're not even talking about black women who make significantly less than white men. I think there needs to be some accountability as to the governance of organizations being more inclusive and leadership. You know, in terms of really reflecting, divert what whether the whole community looks like you know, whether it's people who work for you or where your company or nonprofit organization is located. I think inviting people to join in leadership capacity is essential. And then I think there needs to be some sense of allowing voices to be heard. One of the things that I always push back against even in the work that I do with lobby and walls is this, this idea of trying to take a solution to a community without ever knowing the community, right? It's this, this idea of trying to, you know, solve a person's problems that you've never even met. And I think there's this, this real damage that is done when you don't take time to be proximate and present with the community, to hear their voices, because the community's cries always had all will always have embedded within those cries, the solutions that they need for themselves. So the real, the real thing that I'm trying to say is, you know, if you are a leader, and you're leading organization, are you being true, to listening to the voices within the context of the community that makes up the whole community? Not the exclusive community, but the whole community? And are you given those voices? The ability to be in leadership and make decisions? And are you compensating them well, right? Because if you're not doing any of that, then we can't even talk about equality or equity. And I'm not talking about the type of diversity where you use a person's skin color for marketing. Right? I'm talking about, you know, really investing in a person and designing the space with them in mind, right? Yeah, most times. When people talk about diversity, they say that everybody is welcome. But they are not designing that space with a person that they are saying that are welcome in mind. And there's that's a totally different. Yes. It's just totally different. Yeah.

Bethaney Wilkinson  27:12

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I'm wondering, I have one more question for you. Before I jump into our lightning round. I'm wondering how can aspiring justice and social change advocates find their lane and even discern their, you know, highest and best contributions to social change movements? I know there's, I know, listening to this podcast, there are people who have varying degrees of influence. Some of them are leading organizations. Some of them are entry level employees, some are entrepreneurs, some are really active in their neighborhood schools. And so I'm wondering for people who are saying to themselves, hey, I want to show up more effectively, more consistently. And I want it to make sense for who I am in my life. What I don't know, what would you say to encourage them in that how can they go about finding their lane and supporting the bigger picture social change causes we're after when I say social change causes? I'm thinking a lot of things mostly addressing racism today, but yeah, what do you think?

Terence Lester  28:15

Yeah. I am inspired by Rosa Parks. And not the Rosa Parks that we all know, that just said no, on, on the, on the front of the bus, I'm talking about the person that had been committed to social justice for 20 plus years long before anyone ever knew our name, standing up and fighting for or against sexual violence. The person who live in impoverishment so she could continue to advocate and fight for people and then, you know, culminating on this bus when she decided enough was enough, and said no. You know, I think about her story because her story led to Supreme Court in the 14th amendment saying, you know, it was unconstitutional for you know, laws to racially segregate seating on buses. And the reason why I like her and love her story, is because one of the things that I think that it takes his heart, this heart and this unyielding passion and grit, to relentlessly go after that thing that burdens your heart, day in and day out, year in and year out, month in and month out. Until you see how your added contribution, you know, tapped into the contributions of others are actually making change and the truth of the matter is that some times you want to all wear a seat? Right? I'm pretty sure for 20 years, she was wondering what in the world is happening, you know, and I'm pretty sure there are other people who have been fighting on the side of, of justice for a long time, but the thing that they never lose his heart. And so you really got to ask yourself, Is this thing really in my heart, and if it is, I'm not going to worry about the results right away, I'm just going to commit myself to continuing to show up. Wow, I think another thing too, is proximity and involvement. You know, sometimes we we like to advocate from a distance, and I, and there's nothing wrong with that everybody has their lane. But I think true transformation and the power of, of our environment comes through proximity and presence. And proximity is different from presence, because you can be proximate to something and not even realize it's there. And, you know, when you move into a place where you realize it's there, and you're in, you're consciously aware that you're proximate to it, presence is when you dwell there with that thing. For an extended amount of time, and, and you make it a part of the normal rhythm of your life, right? When you're practicing presence, whether it's in whatever calls that you're advocating for. And then I think, this other thing of repetition, like you don't know who you're becoming, until you commit yourself to it, you know, there's, you know, you couldn't have told me 17 years ago, when I said that, I'm going to, you know, advocate on behalf of my community, I'm going to show up, I'll speak, I'll do whatever it takes long before I started the organization, that I would be in the place of leadership that I'm in today, I wasn't even focused on being a leader. I just wanted to commit myself to showing up. And I think through the repetition, you become something like most people try to become and then they do, I think that you do and as you're doing, you become the thing that you're you're seeking to become and you don't even know when it's happening, you're just you just becoming the thing through the power of repetition. And if you're somebody that hasn't figured any of this out, I would encourage you to take a moment to do some introspection, some personal assessment, you know, get in a place where you learn yourself more, you may have skills and gifts and talents that you've yet to discover. Or you may even discover how you can use how you're wired as a person to connect to the much larger fabric of social change. Maybe it's research, maybe it's, you know, just being a person that signed someone up to to get their voter registration. It could be anything, but I would take time to personally invest in being introspective, so you can understand what it is that you want to contribute to the fabric of social change. Yes, yes, yes, yes

Bethaney Wilkinson  33:23

to all of those things. And I love that that we become we become the thing on the way. It's not like we start there, and then we'll have the grand expression, but in taking baby steps, and doing the thing we will will become the kinds of justice advocates that we're hoping to be so Oh, that's so good, Tara, thank you for that. Okay, so here's the lightning round. I have five questions, and I'm just gonna go for it. Okay, number one, what is your favorite story of all time? Oh, my goodness. This is lightning round. Hmm.

Terence Lester  34:16

I think my favorite story of all time is found in the Bible. It's the story of Joseph. He was a young guy, his father favorite him. And his brothers became really jealous of him. He was sold into slavery. He ended up in jail. And then, you know, he was lied on. I mean, he was in prison for about 13 years. And then finally, it was this opportunity where the sheep Butler and chief Baker was in the prison with him and he was able to give them some wisdom, which elevated him and he had no clue. That the elevation and being second in charge in this region that he was in, would set him up to actually provide the type of wisdom that would save people from experiencing a famine. The thing I love about that story is that towards the end, he makes this statement where he says what you meant for evil, God minute for a good, man, that's powerful. And it's such a powerful perspective to have, that, you know, even when you're on your journey, and you can't see how things are working out. And you find yourself in a pit of a place and you find yourself in a place where you feel it in prison, that somehow in some way, if you commit yourself to this process, that there is beauty that can come and emerge from it, even when it's unexpected. And the things that you're actually going through, can be used to greater serve other people. And it's just such a powerful story. And I love it.

Bethaney Wilkinson  36:11

So powerful, so powerful. Number two, what is the last book you read and loved?

Terence Lester  36:21

The last book I read and loved? Hmm, I wouldn't have to say, I don't think of an elephant. And it's by George Lake off sexually. I was given this book by one of my professors at school. And there's a line in it that I love. George Lake off, is a professor that talks about political issues. But he says that reframing can be used for social change, reframing can be used for social change. And the thing that he's getting at is that rhetoric rather it's political, as social rhetoric forms, these types of mental frames or social constructions about a people group, right? We could just use this. For instance, when you think about people experiencing homelessness, you oftentimes think about people who are poor and lazy and addicted to drugs, etc. Well, we have to question what are those frames come from? Right? What are those narratives come from? And the thing that I like about it is that when you reframe something, you get a chance, not only to educate them, but you get the chance to deconstruct the false embedded narrative that they may hold or possess, like, even the term social distancing, right. I hate that I hate those terms. Because there are people experiencing homelessness that have been socially distant, long before a pandemic, right? Yeah. Good are laws that have criminalized them. And so like, even with that, or people who say, I'm politically homeless, you know how damaging that is to someone who is actually homeless, experiencing homelessness, and don't even get a chance to participate in the political process. You know, it's, it's those types of things that we need to pay attention to. That creates the world or the lens in which we view the world. And so, really great book just went on a tangent. So yeah, that's good.

Bethaney Wilkinson  38:35

If you could have dinner with one person, dead or alive, living or dead, who would you choose?

Terence Lester  38:42

Wow, dinner. I don't want to hang out with Harriet Tubman. Oh, that's a good one Why? I watch story is so profound, like even their stories or accounts, when you read it, it says she used to like, as she was freeing slaves, sometimes she would pass out because she was hitting her head. And you know, she would just wake up and then continue the journey. And she went back and forth, back and forth. And she risked her life to ensure that people were free. Like, I wouldn't like to just sit at our feet and just ask, like, What gave you the courage What? You know, because when you have courage, like, that doesn't mean that fear is absent. That means you do it in the face of fear, right? And I just want to know, like, what kept her committed to doing that type of work, knowing that her life could have been taken early, and she ended up living alone life. You know, and I would just want to learn from her.

Bethaney Wilkinson  39:54

So good. Yeah, me too. Me too. That's a good one. Number four, name one song. It would be on the soundtrack to your life.

Terence Lester  40:04

Wow. Man. Oh, you know what? I'm out like, I like old school music. And there's this this song called joy and pain. Do you know it? I don't know it it's it's an old school song and I'm trying to it's by Frankie barrel, Beverly amaze, okay. And basically he The song is talks about how, you know, basically that you're going to have joy and pain in the in your life and relationships, etc. And I think the duality of joy and pain is so real because many people only want the roses but forget that there are thorns, right, the honey, but forget that there are bees, you know, we want the sunshine but forget that the rain actually is needed, right? And so like there's a duality that happens. But we can't allow the pain and the the human suffering to stop us from showing up and giving our best selves, even to our last breath. But I just like the old school song.

Bethaney Wilkinson  41:38

Yeah, I have to look that one up. I'm gonna do that today. I'm okay, last question. How can everyday people close the gap between their good intentions for diversity and true cultural change? Hmm.

Terence Lester  41:55

Wow, I wrote this quote, it says growing in diversity and inclusion means that you learn to listen to what people have to say, that are different from you with the filter, they are speaking from a perspective that is not my own. I think one of the most important things that we can do at this moment in time is have empathetic listening. Sympathy is different from empathy. Sympathy is at Oh, you know, I feel that in my heart, and that's that, you know, you feel sorry for someone. But empathy is I feel it in my, my heart. But I want it to come out through my hands and service. Right. And that service component speaks to humility, that we need to engage, have healthy engagement without attacking people, that we need to be reminded of Martin King's view of the entire world. He called it the world house. But you're not just living in, you know, some isolated space, where it's just you, me, myself and I or your family and nobody else I that we are interconnected that what I do for you, I'm also doing for myself, he says, right. But I think that empathetic listening, would give people an opportunity to know one another. Martin King says we we hate one another because we haven't taken time to be proximate or get close to one another. We haven't taken time to know one another. And I like to say in my talks as it relates to people who are experiencing homelessness, but this could apply to anything, that you can't hate a person up close. That when you really take time to sit and listen and know a person's hopes and fears and dreams and aspirations and their story, that you humanize him in a way that not only impacts you, but impacts them. And then you start to see how you are both a part of the blood community.

Bethaney Wilkinson  44:10

So beautiful, so powerful. I keep saying that, because it really is just that good. Thank you so much for your time parents, I appreciate it. And I know that the listeners are appreciating it too. Thank you. Thank you for the work that you do in the world. Also. I do want to give a chance Can you have a book that is already available for pre order that by the time this episode drops, it will have lunch? So can you tell the people about your book and anything else you're working on that you want them to know?

Terence Lester  44:38

Yeah, sure. Well, firstly, thank you for having me and thank you for mentioning a book. I have a book called when we stand the power of seeking justice together, emphasis on the word together. started to realize that, you know, social media can create a lot of trauma. You know, because you can access so many sets with children. injustices at once just from the palm of your hand. And, you know, what do you do with that many people become paralyzed, right? They want to make a difference, but they don't know how. And so this book is helping people to realize that they need to be a part of a community, get connected to other people, and offer up, even if it's in a small way, something to contribute to the fabric of social change. And that in collaboration with other people, in collaboration with other people actually makes a difference in the world. And I talked about why we need to be together as as it relates to addressing social and justices, you know, you know, addressing homelessness alone is a mountain, you know, etc. And so yeah, we are also working on a docu series called find your watt. That will probably be out by the time people hear that, or hear this. And it's always it's talking about helping people to discover the reason why they wake up, you know, and finding some type of passion and given themselves to that passion for any amount of time that they have. Yep.

Bethaney Wilkinson  46:15

Great. Great. Okay, well, we will be sure to link to all of these things in the show notes. Thanks again, for your time, parents. I hope you have a good day. All right, thank you. Bye. Such a good conversation. I learned so much from Terence, and I just again, like I said at the beginning, I really appreciate the ways he is able to really hold both the personal and the intellectual together. I think so often our work for racial justice to diversify our organizations, it can all be really academic, and it can be really in our heads and we forget that we're talking about ideas and, and policies that are affecting real lives. And so thanks again to Utah parents for being a part of this conversation. And to all of the listeners. Thanks for being here. Thanks for listening to this episode of the diversity gap podcast. You can pre order the book The diversity gap at WWW dot the diversity gap.com and you can learn more about our work at WWW dot the diversity gap academy.com. All of these things are linked in the show notes. Again, I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being with us. And until next time, may your good intentions for diversity lead to true cultural change.