Scaling Diversity Across a National Organization with Tom Lin
Episode Summary: In this conversation, Bethaney interviews the current president of Intervarsity Christan Fellowship, Tom Lin. Tom has many years experience as an executive level leader in organizations. He is currently on the board of Fuller Theological Seminary and has served on the boards of many other influential organizations. He is an author and contributor to many publications, and he has spent his life in service to a purpose much bigger than himself. In this conversation, we talk about diversity strategy for large, national organizations. We talk about leadership capacity in the midst of difficult times. We also discuss the importance of learning from cultures and communities outside of the United States.
Episode Notes: Tom Lin was commissioned as the eighth president of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship/USA on August 10, 2016, the first full president to be chosen from InterVarsity staff.
From 2005 to 2014, Tom served as a trustee and vice-chair of the board of Wycliffe Bible Translators, and has also served on the boards of Missio Nexus and Leadership & Legacy Foundation. He currently serves on the boards of Fuller Theological Seminary, the Crowell Trust, and the Lausanne movement.
Tom is the author of Pursuing God’s Call (2012) and Losing Face, Finding Grace (1996), as well as co-editor of the Urbana Onward book series (2012), and a contributor to Still Evangelical (2018), all published by InterVarsity Press.
Tom, his wife Nancy, and their two daughters live in Madison, Wisconsin.
Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
intervarsity, organization, people, diversity, leaders, challenges, question, communities, person, thought, chicago, hear, white, world, board, leadership, context, taiwanese, structures, christian
SPEAKERS
Bethaney Wilkinson, Tom Lin
Bethaney Wilkinson 00:00
Some of you may know this, some of you may not. But in college, I was involved in a campus ministry called InterVarsity. This experience me being in this organization changed my life in so many ways, if any of you have heard me talk about that one time, when I went to Chicago, that's another story. But if you've heard me talk about it, that trip was a part of university. And when I look at the diversity gap project, in many ways, I feel like this work is my adult expression of passion for justice I found as a college student, many years ago. And so today, you get to hear my interview with Tom Lin, the current president of InterVarsity, and the first non white president of this national organization. Tom has many years experience as an executive level leader in organizations. He's currently on the board of Fuller Theological Seminary and has served on the board of many other influential organizations. He's an author, a contributor to other publications, and has really just spent his life and service to a purpose much bigger than himself. In this conversation, we talk about diversity strategy for large national organizations. We talk about leadership, racial identity development, and we talk about the importance of learning from cultures and communities outside of the US. This conversation is full of so many practical leadership insights for your organization. So capture all of them great stories, great content, so much wisdom, I hope you enjoy it. Welcome to The Diversity Gap podcast, where we are exploring the gap between good intentions and good impact as it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion. My name is Bethaney Wilkinson and I am your host. When did you first become aware of a viewer race or ethnic identity?
Tom Lin 02:04
Great question. I grew up in Chicago at a school that was over 90% White, and I'm myself, I'm Taiwanese American. In first grade, as early as first grade, I have a vivid memory of a bunch of kids asking me, What are you? Like, basically, they're saying, What's your ethnic background? But that's the way they asked it, what are you? And I calmly look at them. And I said, I'm Hawaiian. I'm not Hawaiian. I'm Taiwanese. And and I thought, Well, as I look back, I'm like, why would a first grader answer a question like that with that type of answer? And I think the reason was, even at that young age, I knew there was something about my response. If I would have said Chinese or Taiwanese, I would have gotten made fun of, I knew that if I would have thread the needle with something like Hawaiian, there's a coolness factor to it. There is a sort of American identification, perhaps there's something unique about that. And so I said Hawaiian, and I thought it was very interesting. Meanwhile, around that time, you know, I also was aware, I went to a Taiwanese church. So Taiwanese Christian church on Sunday, so I was with a Taiwanese community on Sundays. But the rest of the week, I was mainly with a white community. And so I think even at that early young age, I became aware.
Bethaney Wilkinson 03:31
I think I first became familiar with you it was maybe in Urbana, I can't remember exactly what happened. I remember when you became President of University, there was a lot of just communication and celebration of the fact that you're the first non white president of a university. And so I was wondering for you, how did you process that? Because I would imagine on one hand, it's an opportunity that you stepped into, because it presented itself and it made sense and prayerfully, it was the right direction. But on the other hand, it represented this huge shift in the organization for so many other people. And so how did you process that being the first non white president of this national organization?
Tom Lin 04:15
Yeah, great question. I think I had a couple different kinds of responses or in processing, I think. Yeah, I mean, on one hand, I thought, you know, what's the big deal? Yeah, there was a part of me was like, this isn't a big deal. And I think it was because I was used to being the only non white person in many rooms. I've been on different boardrooms, I had been the first non white director of Urbana the conference, you relate you were just talking about their Bannister admissions conference, the largest mission conference in the world Christian mission conference. And so there were a lot of those types of tests. I thought, Oh, this is just another thing where I'm the first or the only non white and but what I didn't realize was because in overseas a very large national Christian organization, and I was one of the first if not the first organization, this size, evangelical organization that's non white, a non white President CEO, I think it meant a lot to people. And I begin to realize, wow, folks believe and feel like I'm representing them. And there's both a sense of affirmation of that, like, that's wonderful. And I was like, I'm glad like, this is important for people of color. But then you then the other side of processing, wow, there's a lot of expectations that come with this, right. And, and people want to see their own individual hopes and dreams come true because of what this represents. And so. So it, I would say, you know, on one hand, it was not a big deal. And then suddenly, it became a big deal. And I'm just thankful that in InterVarsity, at least within the organization, there was so much support from all sorts of different communities. And so I was able to process it. Well, I think, or I hope.
Bethaney Wilkinson 06:05
Thanks for sharing that I'm. So I have one more question about your identity, and how you kind of emerged as a leader in your book, losing faith and finding grace, you write about the experience of feeling in between the culture of your immigrant parents, and the Western culture you experienced as a young person in Chicago. And I know just from conversations I've had with my friends, and people who kind of they work and live at these intersections of identity, or maybe they're the only one of their race or ethnicity or gender, that finding your footing in the midst of feeling in between, especially as you're becoming you're growing up and emerging into adulthood, that it can be a real challenge. And so I'm curious for you, how did you find your footing or sense of place in the midst of belonging to two pretty different kinds of communities?
Tom Lin 06:57
Yeah, great question. I would say, you know, on one hand, it wasn't easy. You always feel like you're never part of either culture. And I feel a sense of empathy for my multiracial friends who live with us every day. And it's, it's a challenge. It wasn't easy for me. I constantly felt like I didn't belong in my Taiwanese church I mentioned and nor, as well as my primarily white school. And it all came to a head when even I was deciding what to do with my life. And I decided to go into Christian ministry and what started working for InterVarsity that brought a lot of dishonor and shame to my parents, we had some significant disagreements, and they ended up cutting me out of their life. And it was a big cost, we had fights over it, and they just did not want to engage with me anymore. They felt like I let them down as a son. And it was hard for me because I thought, you know, I think I'm doing what I believe is right, as a Christian and and I'm an adult now, I don't understand why my parents are reacting that way. And so. So I think there's a lot of suffering that comes along with being a bicultural person. And it's challenging. The way that I think I eventually found my footing, was being in a community of other people who were similar to me, they were going through similar challenges in InterVarsity, it was other Asian American staff, it was our Latino staff, or black staff who understood some of these cultural tensions that they constantly faced. I learned a lot from them, they helped me find my footing. And then I came to appreciate and I will say, this is where I've been more in the last couple of decades, recent more recently, my life is the tremendous advantages of being a bicultural leader, by cultural person. We're actually there's advantages of being able to switch from one context to another, to speak truth from one community to another, to sort of hold both cultures intentions in place. There's some advantages to that. And so, you know, I've come to appreciate it more now. But but it was not easy. Certainly.
Bethaney Wilkinson 09:18
Yeah. And so I am wanting to, to switch gears a little bit and talk about your leadership within University and thinking about diversity and, and I guess a little bit of my background, I became familiar with the work of racial reconciliation largely through the work of Dr. Brenda Salter McNeil and Sandra Maria Van Opstal in Chicago. And then as I've gotten to this nonprofit space in my professional career, I'm learning all of this about diversity, inclusion, equity. And so a lot of what I'm doing or trying to do through this project is find the places where those two conversations intersect and overlap the differences there. And I'm also aware of how important it is To give structure and strategy to our good intentions around diversifying our organizations, and dignifying all people. So I'm wondering for you, as you're leading this very large national organization that has so many different expressions, and so many different kinds of voices, what does it look like to even engage strategic change around diversity and inclusion and reconciliation as a whole? That's a big question. But I'm wondering, you even think about that. And maybe what are some of the organizational things you have to do to move that vision forward?
Tom Lin 10:35
Yeah, that's a great question. But an important one, we do think about that. It's not just about good intentions. There's got to be intentional strategies, intentional leadership. And it's because of the people that you mentioned people like Bernal Salter, McNeil, Senator Van opso, who I know both of them very well. And, in fact, my background goes back to a Chicago urban program that I did, as a student as a college student. And Brenda was part of that in the Chicago days in her Chicago days, which helped me see the importance of both leadership in these types of things and intentionality. So I think, I would say that there are a lot of challenges. First, there's some advantages. And then there's some challenges as a larger organization, that advantages, University has been on this journey for some time. And so we're at a point where through a variety of strategies and things we've tried and failed at and tried and failed that over the years, we're now at about two thirds of our vice presidents and above, so senior leaders in the movement are people of color or women. And so we do have that advantage, I'll say, whereas I think it's much more of an uphill battle, when you're trying to roll out some kind of diversity strategy in your organization's in a different place. So, so maybe to start there, I think a key strategy is developing those kinds of leaders developing leaders of color women. And so we had several, we've done several intentional programs, where we sort of select a group of 15 leaders from around the country, either black leader, Latino leaders, women, whatever segment we're really trying to grow leaders in very intentionally give them the best resources, the best mentoring, the best opportunities, coach them through that and then see them grow. I think those types of intentional things are so crucial. So I would say that's one strategy that's worked for some time now. Now, there are challenges. So I'll just list a few. So, for example, you get to the place where we're we're at right now with two thirds people of color women, how do you help white males feel included? So suddenly, you have an interesting in inclusivity? Challenge, right? Is that how are they being included in certain conversations? versus not? So that's a that's a unique challenge that we sometimes think about now. There's regional challenges. So in each region, there are differences. So even the language from the West Coast, to the Midwest, to the south, there are regional differences in how you talk about diversity, what are the priority? So in InterVarsity, you know, we'll have some priorities and diversity in one region that's different than in another region, because they're just very different places. There are differences, as I know, you're aware of when we talk about Asian American staff are Asian American initiatives. South Asians are in a different place, and East Asians are in different places in Southeast Asians, right. So if I look at senior leaders and vice presidents and are moving, they're primarily East Asian and South Asia, we actually do not have many Southeast Asians at that level of leadership. within the black community. Of course, we're thrilled that there's a lot of growth in our ministry to black students, as well as the number of black staff. But there are differences we're seeing right between first generation Africans, who are a part of our ministry, Caribbean Americans, African Americans. So even within our black ministry in our black staff communities, differences. So rolling out these kinds of strategies, one size fits all often does not work. And so how do you both allow for that contextualization, but you don't, you know, diluted so much that becomes so weak, right. And so I think that's a challenge. And one last thing I'll just say is, we're always on the journey. So one of the challenges is to always know, you haven't arrived, you know, we often say in an RC, we know we've never arrived, there's always we're always on the journey. We're always learning we've always got to keep growing. You know, recently when we were talking about diversity was become very clear during this COVID-19 Coronavirus kind of season is how our moms being included in our organization, how are single people being included in our organization at a time when there's this unique challenges to people who are in different phases of life, whether you're a parent or a single, or much older person who's in the at risk category, right? So I think we're just we're always on the journey, there's a lot to learn when you're trying to roll out things organizational wide.
Bethaney Wilkinson 15:30
Yeah, I think a lot about the diversity that exists within these broad racial categories. But I hadn't thought about the implications of trying to roll it out across regions, because that, of course, makes so much sense. The challenges we have around race and rural Georgia are so different than what you have been in Chicago, LA Portland. And so that's, that's right. That's really challenging, I guess you would have to develop lots of local level leaders who are prepared to engage.
Tom Lin 15:59
That's right. Yep. That's right. You need the local leader. So it's not just nationally led, you need local leaders. And this is that's very important.
Bethaney Wilkinson 16:08
So I'm wondering, given how many different kinds of people you work with other university how and this is mostly just for me, personally, I'm wondering how do you continue to lead and invest in people when you really disagree with them? Like when you have fundamental like, value clashes, and yet you're all somehow working together? Because you believe in the mission? How do you navigate that?
Tom Lin 16:31
Yeah, great question. Again, I would say it's sort of the always on the journey kind of thing that I mentioned. For me personally, as a leader, I always go back to sort of my commitment to being a lifelong learner, I think it helps me to say, you know, I don't think I've ever arrived individually, I'm gonna keep learning to the day I die. You know, I'm a lifelong learner. So I need to remain open. Now, because I'm a bicultural person. And then I think what really helped me remain open is I lived in a different part of the world. So I spent about four and a half years in Mongolia, living and environment that's very different than the US, I think, displacing ourselves in cross cultural environments, displacing oneself in a different context, really helps one be open to different perspectives. So that I would say that that's a very helpful step for those who are wanting to go in this area, because you realize all your presuppositions about certain things are thrown away when you're in a completely different context. And then I began to realize, when I came back to the US, hey, I understand why people have different perspectives on different issues that might differ from mine, they grew up in a very different context. And it makes sense that they would have a different view on certain things. Last thing I'll say is to remain open to different perspectives and sort of engage in that I do try to intentionally surround myself with diverse viewpoints. So whether it's on social media, trying to listen to people who have different perspectives than me, I think it's so tempting to just listen to an echo chamber, people who, when your friends or people you follow are all people who agree with you. It's another thing to intentionally try to listen to different types of voices. So I think that's been a discipline I've tried to carry as surround myself with diverse viewpoints.
Bethaney Wilkinson 18:22
Yeah, I want to ask more about your international experience here in a second, because I'm really curious about that. And some things I've read that you've written about that. And before I get there, I, I know that you have served on a variety of leadership boards and advisory boards and committees and things. And I know that for a lot of organizations, navigating diversity is just a big tension and or priority. And so I'm wondering for the other organizations, that you're a part of what kinds of conversations around culture and diversity are you having there, because I'm wondering if for listeners, if it might be helpful to hear you speak to some of those other other dynamics and challenges leaders are facing
Tom Lin 19:03
The one thing I say to leaders of other organizations and to boardrooms. First is, you need to invest for the long haul, you're not going to see immediate results, or, you know, whatever your classification of ROI is, it's, it's, it doesn't happen fast, you need to be in it for the long haul. And I think that's where so many organizations fall down is because they're like, hey, it didn't work. I tried, and it didn't work, and they give up too easily. So I encourage that. I do think it does start at the board level. So the board needs to be committed to diversity. I would encourage board mandates. So a board to have a mandate to the CEO or Executive Director and say, you know, you have to do this and so boards need to start with that kind of leadership. It does. It starts at the very top. I think the President Executive Director CEO needs to be intentional and I just give you one quick story for me. It was important for me to when I first became president to be intentional about, as I said before developing leaders of color in organization and say this is important in of our city. And I would suggest this for any president. So I had the first group of people I had my home, were the top, I would say 1213 Latino, and black national leaders in InterVarsity, I had them over into my home for three days to spend time with me, and wanted to see what they're seeing, hear what they're hearing, and get some input and also develop relationship with them and basically say, you know, you're important to this organization. And so I've suggested that to other presidents of organization saying, you know, it's got to start with you at the top. Yes, there's a lot of that other people need to do too. But it needs to start with you at the top. Your actions speak louder than your words. So what will you do you know, and one of my peers friend who was the Wickliffe, Bible translators president, he took me up on that he did the same thing. He said this, that's great advice. And he invited a small group of folks to his home for several days, to hear them out to affirm them to encourage them to listen. And so I think it can make a huge difference. There's a lot more I could say on this, if you want to, if you want to hear more, but I'll stop there for now.
Bethaney Wilkinson 21:14
Yeah, well, maybe share one or two more ideas there. Cuz I think that's gold. Sure, sure. Yeah, I think that's really great. What else is on your mind?
Tom Lin 21:22
Yeah. So to lead change at the highest levels? It does take exposure to So like, for example, a board if your board is primarily white and not engaged in diversity issues? How do you change their opinion, right. So that's very important for a leader to figure out how to do one small thing that I did with one organization is because I was a board member, I was able to influence who they had come to speak at retreats for has always had board retreats, who's going to speak and so I had a friend of mine, some Chandra, who's wonderful leader in this diversity space and other spaces from North Park seminary. I had him speak to a board, I had a sandbar caught who has actually University's first vice president, a multi ethnic ministries, and a wonderful diversity leader, he spoke at a board retreat, having people engage with boards like that is very strategic, so even who you invite to speak, right? And then I'll say another thing is structures and systems. So again, it's not just what you say, what are you going to do practically to your structures and systems, which influence diversity in the organization? So it's not just about being nice and welcoming, right? But what are the structures and systems in place in your organization? And for us, it meant looking at in InterVarsity, different structures of you know, do we have a line that's not just looking at ministry to diverse students segments, but who's looking at our organization, our employee lines, and so we actually hired Vice President of Diversity Inclusion, just two and a half years ago, for this intentional purpose. So we looked at our structures. And so there's some things we're doing with our systems as well. And one small tidbit, I'll just share there, and then I'll stop is we looked at our sort of what's the equitable distribution of wealth look like? Right? It's a hot topic, big topic and diversity circles. We noticed that baby boomers, and remember, we're in the nonprofit space of baby boomers are going to donate or leave behind the biggest wealth transfer in the history of America. Right. And it's coming, it's coming in the coming years. And so we have a plan giving strategy or department that is looking at, you know, what happens people when they die, and they give a gift to university, when they pass away? What happens is 10 gifts, and we decided on a policy that said, you know, for those who pass away and give to an FRC, and if they don't specify, you know, like where it has to go, we're gonna automatically redistribute that wealth to our staff of color, especially our black or Latino staff, or staff of color, in light of recognizing historical injustice, and systems that had discriminated against these communities in the past, which didn't allow these communities to build up that level of wealth. So it's sort of our own way of sort of redistributing wealth as it comes into InterVarsity in this way. And so I think their policy is at least 75% of the gift that comes in, will go to our staff of color. So that's a systemic change that we implemented.
Bethaney Wilkinson 24:36
Wow, that is remarkable. I have so many questions about that. We'll ask all of them because we be here for a long time. I'm are people excited about that? Did you have to convince people was that a challenging thing? I think that's remarkable. I've never heard of anything quite like that before.
Tom Lin 24:55
People are excited about it. I mean, it's, it feels a long, long time away, though. So you've read these are planned gifts. So they are only realized when people pass away, you know, and then they give us that gift. Right. But yeah, I think there's excitement, I would say, but it's not a huge leap forward either for us and InterVarsity, we've been trying our best to work on equity issues within and funding issues. How do we make sure we pay our people equally across the board? Those have been things we've been working on for some time now. Certainly, it's it's a good step forward. And we need to keep doing more of them.
Bethaney Wilkinson 25:34
Yeah, absolutely. And I didn't mean to sound thrilled that people are passing away. I was thrilled.
Tom Lin 25:38
Right? I understand. Right.
Bethaney Wilkinson 25:42
Incredible President established. Okay, so my next question is about a note that I read in the book, still evangelical that you made a contribution to and I, I loved how it was towards the beginning of what you wrote, you talked about the importance of people in the United States, really learning from the experiences of people in the majority world. And I traveled a bit in college, but it's been a long time, and it's very easy to stay just to be there. I am going to work being with my family. And so I'm, I was just really challenged by this idea that oh, yes, of course, people all over the world have navigated atrocity and injustice, and, and just really, I mean, ethnic cleansing, and all sorts of things. And so my question to you is, what do you think we lose when we don't make it a priority to learn from our brothers and sisters around the world? And then what do we stand to gain by doing that more intentionally?
Tom Lin 26:40
When I look at issues of racial constellation justice in the US, generally, we're very American centric. And often it's politicized. It's tied to some often some kind of political agenda as well. So this is one reason I believe it's really important for us to learn from majority world where, as you said, I mean, there's so much experience there. I mean, think of Rwanda and the Hutus and the Tutsis, I think of ethnic cleansing, and in other parts of the world, many contexts have dictators, strong rules, where they've been living under dictators for a long time and dealing with these issues. So can we learn? And then you know, you put on top of that, that I think that people forget the global in again, in my context, I work in Christian ministry, the global Evangelical Church, the global Christian Church, if you had a composite of what does the average church member look like? That person is a woman of color, in a different part of the world, that's the average composite is a woman of color in another part of the world. So why don't we listen to and learn from these voices? Right? And so for me, I think we gain so much we're humbled when we learn from other contexts, we learn to, I think, zoom out and sort of see things from the balcony and not get sucked into our own American cultural lens and issues or a politicized lens. I spend a lot of time with Christian leaders from other parts of the world. I'm just fascinated by how they can look at issues theologically and biblically that I'm like, Oh, wow, that's the I had never thought of it that way. Because I'm so caught up in the Americanized way of looking at something. So we lose that perspective, when we don't look to the majority world.
Bethaney Wilkinson 28:29
Oh, gosh, that's so that's such a good challenge. But do you have any resources or experiences you would recommend to someone who's listening, and they're thinking, wow, I haven't thought of that before? Where can I start today?
Tom Lin 28:41
If you're interested in interacting with Christian thought leaders on these types of issues? I do think some seminaries like Fuller Theological Seminary has some great courses. So that's one option if you'd like the course and study route, sort of majority world theologies that engage issues of justice and reconciliation. If you're an experiential type of person, maybe you're not swayed for setting, I would travel, I would try, you know, again, after this pandemic, kind of after it's easier to travel and more safe to travel. But I would travel and get to other contexts, visit context firsthand, and talk to people ask them, and it's amazing how the average person on the street in any of these contexts who have gone through these atrocities or these kinds of racial issues, they can speak to it if you just go there and you talk to people. So I would say just get into those contexts and ask people.
Bethaney Wilkinson 29:39
I have so many notes here. Thank you. So my last question, I asked everyone this or some form of this question, when you step back and look at national organizations and let's for the sake of our conversation, National Christian organizations, what is the biggest diversity gap you see? And how might we close it?
Tom Lin 30:00
Yeah, I think among national Christian organizations, the biggest gap that I see, well, I'll just say one, one of the biggest gaps I see is having what I call a homegrown people in the C suite. For Change to really happen. You need to see diversity at your highest levels of your organization. And I think that's often what's missing, as good hearted as some of my white brothers and sisters who lead organizations are if your team is all white, it's just it's challenging. And no matter how hard you try, it's just very challenging. And so developing people from within, though that's the gap is that I see organizations trying to solve this problem by hiring people from the outside. And that's, that's great. You know, we need to do that if you can hire someone from corporate America, who has C suite experience, we hire them, we bring them into our Christian organization. And they can help, right. But what happens is, that's a shortcut, really, we're not paying enough attention to our internal systems and structures, which raise up our own leaders from within our organization into those places of leadership. Right? And so see that disconnect. Is there organizations who are who are recognized Yeah, we need top level leaders who are leaders of color, and women, they hire from the outside, because it's just it's too hard. They can't identify people within, I would say, it's important to invest in that pipeline, focus internally in your own organization, and ask the question, How am I going to develop people from within, to rise to these positions of senior leadership? It means intentional leadership development programs, it means looking at your culture of your organizations, all your systems and structures, what are the barriers that are causing unnecessary ceilings? For the staff of color? And women? Right? And how can you break those ceilings for them? How can you reduce those barriers? Right? And it's so tempting. And I think, and I understand this, it's sometimes it happens unintentionally, because, for example, we see a person of color, and they're gifted, and then we, we overworked them, because you know, an organization has few of them. And they're like, Oh, we got you know, let's get this person over here and here, and here, we overworked them, or we give them an assignment that we really should not have given them. But we're just so eager to solve an issue that we currently have our crisis. We're not thinking of their long term future enough. So I think that gap is how do we develop people internally, so they can lead at the highest levels? I think that's where I would love to see more of the large Christian organizations address.
Bethaney Wilkinson 32:43
Thank you so much, Tom. This has been so great. I like I said, I have so many notes and as an InterVarsity, alum, and someone who also did the Chicago urban program and also went to Fuller, we it's so fun to talk to you. Really great. So thank you so much.
Tom Lin 33:02
Thanks, Bethaney. It's a it's a privilege and I'm so glad we could talk.
Bethaney Wilkinson 33:21
Thank you for listening to The Diversity Gap podcast. If you've been challenged or inspired by what you've heard, please rate and review the show. You can also subscribe to make sure you never miss an episode. If you have thoughts or questions I love to hear from you connect with me at thediversitygap.com or on Instagram @TheDiversityGap. The Diversity Gap podcast is recorded on Muskogee Creek land in Atlanta, Georgia. This episode was produced by Matt Olin for Soul Graffiti Productions.