Speaking Words of Conviction that Heal with Kathy Khang

Episode Summary: In this episode of The Diversity Gap Podcast, Bethaney sits down with author, speaker, leader and yoga teacher Kathy Khang. In this conversation, Bethaney and Kathy discuss the impact of COVID-19 on racial justice conversations, the process of learning to find and use one’s voice, and the importance of speaking words of conviction that may be painful in the short run, but ultimately lead to healing in our organizations and in the world.

Kathy Khang is the author of Raise Your Voice: Why We Stay Silent and How to Speak Up, and co-author of More Than Serving Tea, a book about the intersections of faith, culture and gender. She has also spent more than 20 years working with college students and developing organizational and church leaders. You can learn more about Kathy and her work at www.kathykhang.com. 

Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, conversation, gap, asian americans, hear, diversity, learning, talk, story, parents, organizations, voice, good intentions, thought, speak, moment, space, happening, harmful, raise

SPEAKERS

Bethaney Wilkinson, Kathy Khang

Bethaney Wilkinson  00:00

Have you ever been sitting in a meeting at work or in some other gathering space and you felt the burn to speak up and say something? Maybe you needed to ask a question, maybe you needed to offer a new or challenging perspective. I'm sure you've been there. It's so human, where you are sitting in this moment, and you're asking Is now the time is this the moment for me to be honest, to share what's on my mind to offer that potentially divergent or complicated or more nuanced, or more difficult perspective? I've been thinking about this lately, how one of the biggest parts of the diversity gap is that many of us aren't practiced at raising our voices when we need to most This isn't to say that we can't do it, but that it's a skill that requires some degree of self awareness, humility, and definitely courage. So what makes you hold back when you need to speak up? And what would it take for you to raise your voice? Welcome to The Diversity Gap podcast where we are exploring the gap between good intentions and good impact as it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion. My name is Bethaney Wilkinson and I am your host. Oh, hello, podcast friends. We are back with another episode of The Diversity Gap podcast. And I am thrilled to share this conversation with you. I have the sheer honor of interviewing Kathy Khang, a writing coffee drinking yoga teaching mom of three and fierce pursuer of justice. I followed Kathy's work for many years, as she has written about faith justice, and her identity as an Asian American woman. Kathy has led in and supported numerous nonprofit organizations over the course of her career. She's a contributing author to multiple publications. And most recently, she's the author of raise your voice, why we stay silent and how to speak up. She is a phenomenal storyteller and communicator, and has a fresh, honest and convicting perspective on racial justice work, and what it requires of each of us. So as you listen in, grab your journal, find a cozy spot to listen and take notes, you don't want to miss a part of this enjoy. Something that I really love about your writing is that I feel like you are a phenomenal storyteller in general. And I love how your communication about topics of identity and culture and organizations justice, how it is so story driven, it's not just factual, but it's like deeply rooted in a story that you're really aware of. And I've been thinking a lot more recently, and experiencing through my own reading just how powerful hearing different stories can be. And so I would love if you could share with me and our audience a little bit more of your ethnic identity journey.

Kathy Khang  03:04

Sure. So I came to the US as an eight month old baby in 1971. My parents and I immigrated from Seoul, South Korea, and entered the United States through the Port of Seattle. That is what my green card documented for me all those years. And we chose to settle in Chicago. I'm not, I think I know and understand the family connections here. But you know, in the winter, I'm never really show why we chose Chicago, and chose to stay. But, and I grew up going to school in the Chicago Public School system until I was in second grade. So I would say up through that time, I understood very clearly that I was Korean, and that my closest friends were also Indian, or Filipino or Greek. But there wasn't this sense of those differences being bad. It was just normal. Everyone's home had a different sound and smell to it. And then we moved out to the suburbs in my second grade year. And that is really when that ethnic identity journey kicked into high gear. We were the first family of color in that suburban school district. And I still remember like entering into that school one, just how different the school looked even without the students and teachers right like just the way the classrooms looked and the layout and everything was kind of new and shiny and and then meeting my teachers and my classmates and they were all white. And I don't I know I did. have a category for that, like I said, because when I was going to school in Chicago, there was more of a very distinct ethnic distinction. So it wasn't really just kind of broadly generally white. But I do remember, you know, starting school in the suburbs, and someone who would become a very dear friend, I was assigned like a new kid in the school buddy. And my buddy was showing me around to like the important places of school, like, here's the bathroom, here's the gym, here's where we eat lunch. And she looked at me at one point, and very, like a child would say, and had said to me, what's wrong with your eye? You know, I can't remember she said, What's wrong with your face? Or what's wrong with your eyes? And I responded back, well, I don't know what's wrong with yours. And, and that kind of very childlike innocent, I've never seen anyone who looked like you kind of come and kind of sparked the thought in my mind that this was going to be a very different experience in school. And, you know, kids are kids, we learn what we are exposed to what our parents are exposed to the sense that my house was going to smell different, look different, be different. And then recently was telling stories to my children, who experienced teasing, but they didn't experience the kind of bullying I did, which was very aggressive. It was physical. There were threats of physical violence, as well as physical violence. And things that I think I thought I had expressed to my children but clearly had not because they were sitting there with their mouths open like, what, what you're, you're being hit, you're being threatened, you know, like followed home on your walks home. So I knew moving into the suburbs, that being Korean, being Korean American men, something very different than being white.

Bethaney Wilkinson  07:10

Wow. Yeah. It's, it's interesting to hear you talk about telling your children about those experiences I've been reflecting. lately. My parents are both black, African American, my dad specifically grew up in South Georgia. And then I currently live in Middle Georgia, sometimes in Atlanta. And then hearing him tell stories, and I there are still so many stories, I feel like he hasn't told us Yeah, I think I used to kind of assume we'll all have, it's the same, like the racism of my dad experience versus my grandmother versus the teasing, I experienced. It's all just kind of grouped into this one thing is, oh, this is racial trauma. And we're all carrying it, which is true to a degree, but I'm realizing just the difference in our experiences, because of the generations. And I'm, I'm starting to parse that out. So it's top of mind for me, as you recall that.

Kathy Khang  07:59

Right, and even how we process that, and who has the language and who are the peers and the adults in the room who help us process that. So I think that's definitely one of those things that I'm still parsing through and figuring out which is, my parents are immigrants were immigrants at the time and still struggling to figure out their place in this world. And I don't recall having those conversations with my parents about how terrified I was about going to school, because I understood that going to school and excelling in school was one ticket out of being the other or at least it was perceived as a ticket being out of being the other. And knowing that the conversations that I have with my children are so different. Because there isn't a language gap. There isn't a cultural barrier. Still, there's definitely the generational barrier there. But I think that I have the privilege, again, of kind of speaking the same language and having grown up here in the US, which is so different from my parents who are processing life as adults entering as immigrants. Yeah.

Bethaney Wilkinson  09:13

Something that I heard you talk about in another interview, I think it was with Vivian on the Sunday's hear podcast. I think it was after you told some of your story similar to what you did now. And you talked about how recalling some of those memories, especially around the bullying can still create, like a visceral bodily reaction for you. And, and so I'm curious about how you process that, especially as a yoga teacher, I know, kind of across the spectrum in very, very different ways racially and ethnically. I mean, so much race stuff is embodied. Yes. I would just love to hear you talk about talk about that. Like how do you make sense of what's happening when your heart's racing and you're overheating and you feel Do it before I language for what's going on? Right? 

Kathy Khang  10:04

Well, you know, and interestingly enough, I didn't really have language for that until maybe 14 years ago, when I recognized that I was having what I know now to be anxiety attacks. And it wasn't around racial trauma, it was around a health scare that we had had with my youngest, and kind of reliving those memories, and preparing to go back to the place where this health scare had happened, was triggering all sorts of crazy things in my body, namely, the anxiety attacks. And it was in that time, when I finally realized I couldn't function, and I couldn't be present for my family or for myself, until I got help and had talked to my doctor who walked me through it and was so gentle and kind, and then essentially named it she was like, this is PTSD. That's what this is trauma. And we often think about PTSD, at least at that time was around war, right and around the military. And if you had fought and, and no, this, this happens for people who go through extremely traumatic events, and you have not had space to process and you have not healed from that, but your body remembers, your body remembers. And so for me, it's been and continues to be kind of a multiple, like a multi pronged approach. So even this time of COVID-19. And sheltering in place, has been a time where I'm like, I feel it in my body. I felt it in January, when the reports first started coming out out of China. And I thought, oh, no, this is going to impact the Asian American community, like I knew and had already started texting people. And so the the ways I approach and try to cope and function, and hopefully he'll bit by bit, I have anxiety and struggle with chronic depression. So those are actual conditions that need medical care. And I take medication for that, my little pill every day, and extra pills just in case. And I also have physical practices that I need to prioritize. So my yoga practice is one of those being outside having sunlight are things that I prioritize being here in the Midwest, we don't always have sun. So I have one of those little happy lights is what I call them to provide that kind of artificial sunlight to help my body kind of readjust, re acclimate the last couple of days, it's been like in the 50s, which out here means that it's practically summer. Like people are running outside and taking walks, I've been trying to, you know, keep it close to home and having those kind of physical ways to release the tension that I might not know, or be cognizant that I'm carrying, I practice a lot of breath work. So I am trying to be more aware of how my breathing is, how deep it is, how shallow it is, how fast it is. And when it's shallow, when it's fast, to just take a few moments to deepen it and to slow it down. And I also am very mindful of the fatigue, and the cost of that how tired I am over time, doesn't necessarily go away by taking one nap. And so even in this time, where, like everyone's schedules are a little off. I realized, like my sleeping has been horrible. And I think those are the ways your body tells you something's not right. You know, if you're usually a great sleeper and you're not sleeping well, your body's telling you something. If you're a great Napper and you're finding it hard to nap, your body's telling you something, usually, you know, like, all your bodily functions are pretty normal and regular and suddenly it's not so normal and regular your body is telling you something like I'm still trying to figure out what is going on for me with all of this especially like the COVID stuff and the the anti Asian racism and violence I have not experienced anything recently. I'm pretty sure something happened to me a couple of weeks ago but you know, it's easy to Cat kind of gaslight yourself into thinking like no, that's not what that was. So it was I'm sure it was something else. And realizing, you know, I'm I'm not okay. Like this has been hard.

Bethaney Wilkinson  14:58

Yeah, that's something I I went back and forth on like, I want to ask Kathy about this, do I not? Because I I'm, at least in my mind aware of how heartbreaking and angering and frustrating like there's so many feelings I know as a person who's not Asian, it's been, it's made me really angry, probably that's been my biggest reaction. And then, and then sad probably has been second, maybe the anger is secondary to the sadness, I don't know. But I've also been really inspired to see how the DIS all the negative has kind of galvanized people, especially when I think of some of my Asian American friends, my Asian friends and in the spaces that are being created to lament and grieve and to give voice to their experience. And that's been beautiful to see, I think hard but beautiful, as an observer, and so I'm, I'm curious for you, if you can unpack for us a little bit more about just what this moment has meant for you. What gaps do you see in the conversations that it's created? And a little bit more about how you're processing it?

Kathy Khang  16:04

Sure, I, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna jump right into the gaps. Because part of it is, I've been in this work, and I'm using air quotes, but no one can see that like work. There's the public work of writing and speaking, but also internally, right, in my own life, and my friendships in my family life, this work for, I don't know, about two decades. And so I think that there's plenty to refer to, if you want to like if folks want to look it up on my blog. But when I think about the gaps right now, my my concern, my excitement and my, some of my hesitation, or, you know, I don't even have the words for it right now, around this was to see, particularly Asian Americans who have not engaged in conversations, public conversations around race. And there is that part that Asian Americans have played and have been invited to play given the label of being the wedge, the model minority, which is a lie, and it's a myth. And that label was created by whites to make us feel like we have honorary white status, and we don't. But all of those factors that play into what I like to call race Olympics, and who has it worse, and you know what, we could play that all day long, it's not actually going to advance anything. And I think the disparities and the gaps I see came up for me around the conversations around wearing masks, okay. And so way back in January, when this was first happening, there were stories about this virus and the confusion and all of that, and what was happening in China. And then you would see in the news stories, pictures of Asian Americans here in the US wearing masks, it was so confusing to me. But I understood why it was happening. Because while of course, this is a bad thing. And here in the US, it's not very common to wear masks. I'm Korean American. My parents are Korean immigrants. The idea of wearing a mask is very normal. I don't do it. But you know, my mom often is wearing hats in the middle of winter to protect herself from the sun, wearing a mask on a plane or in the airport, whether or not you're sick is very normal. But I would see these images that I thought, Oh, this is going to be interesting. So now, right after all of this time, the CDC has said, yeah, maybe we should be wearing masks. And my first thought was, oh, shoot, I don't know how to help my black and brown friends, because you're already racially profiled without your mask. And now we're asking people to put bandanas on their faces and walk into public spaces. That seems really unwise, and extremely dangerous. And so there's this space in which I think there's the potential for some great conversations. And I'm not sure how to jump into that. I have some thoughts like this conversation, right. Like for Asian Americans, I think some of my, you know, broadly Asian American peers have never felt the physical threat until this moment. My particularly East Asian American family broadly, have not experienced kind of the physical threat of being in our skin in this same way to wear a mask or to not and then to be able to enter into A space of empathy and to recognize kind of the blindness that some of us as Asian Americans have had, and even to start to unpack the anti blackness that is in our communities that is in our families that is in us, in me to talk about how there are huge gaps. And then also bases of overlapping experiences that we can talk about, and then address, because right now we're hearing the statistics of the gaps in the largest numbers, the highest numbers of deaths are impacting our black siblings. And why is that? Well, I mean, we can say it's about health care, but it goes much deeper than that. Right? It's entire communities. And I think that there are so many spaces, which in which this moment, there are those gaps, but opportunities to talk about, I also wonder about for Asian Americans, the other gap is to then also talk about immigration and immigration status. And I'm talking primarily around kind of the Christian evangelical evangelical spaces that I am a part of, because I would say, I know plenty of Asian American activists who aren't in Faith Christian spaces who have been talking about this for a long time. Yeah. Right. But it's really within kind of the the church space, that I have found the silence, and then to think about immigration status, because Asian Americans actually are like the fastest growing population of undocumented folk in the US. And it's because people are overstaying their visas. And so who knows what COVID numbers are, if people are afraid to go to the hospitals to get tested, to have their existence documented somewhere, right. And that is also impacting some of our brown communities as well. So I think there's so many gaps that are here, that if we take a moment to address would be such an opportunity to bridge to become allies, and learners in this space.

Bethaney Wilkinson  22:28

Wow, you just illuminated so many things. And deepened my thinking on so many different aspects of this conversation. Early on in my the first season of the podcast, I don't know, I went through a couple of weeks where I was learning about how just trying to decide my language around the diversity gap. And do I say black people of color minority, like when you're doing a public project, you have to figure this stuff out. Or at least wrestle with it. And one of the lessons I was learning was just was just how much there is to understand like, within various racial and ethnic minority groups, people of color groups, how we can't assume solidarity around anything, because right, so much of our own learning and unlearning and reframing to do. And so I I'm thankful, because what you just described, really, I mean, it really is a challenge and an invitation for all of us to go deeper and to be more nuanced and educated and, and to have harder conversations than we were maybe trying to before.

Kathy Khang  23:33

Yeah, I think we're capable of having complex conversations, I'd like to think that we are adults enough, mature enough, and also aware that we can't solve everything with one conversation, right? This is going to take a lot of time. And there's a lot of, you know, joking that in this period, we have time. It looks different, right? It looks different. There are a lot of memes going around of like what day is it is this Monday again, but to slow down and have the hard conversations and to really learning from one another, right? Because we can say people of color, but that means a lot of different things to different people.

Bethaney Wilkinson  24:23

Absolutely. Okay, I want to switch gears just a little bit to talk about raise your voice. Yes. And there's this story at the beginning of your book, for the listeners, raise your voices, a book that Kathy wrote, and I'll make sure to link to it. And we're going to talk about it here for a second. But there was a story you told at the beginning of the book that really gripped me and I want to read a portion of it for our listeners who aren't familiar yet. And then just talk to you about that for a second. Is that sound good? Yeah, that sounds good. So it's the beginning of your chapter seen but not heard. And you're talking about incorrect if I miss any of this, but you arrive at this conference and you make a connection point. with your friend, and you wrote, we both realize that my emotions and spirit, were registering something that I hadn't experienced firsthand. And then you went on to talk about how I guess it was towards the end of the conference, you and this group of leaders were finally in the moment to talk about whatever had happened. And this thing that you described, I was like, I had been this person before. Where you know, you're feeling all the things. And so you said, I waited for what I thought was an appropriate time, raise my hand, waited to be acknowledged, took a deep breath to keep my tears at bay and steadied my voice. And then you began to speak up. And then afterwards, you say a friend physically covered your mouth with her hand. And you said, I had been silenced literally, and physically stopped from speaking up. And so I want to talk about your book, because I think a round not only what's happening with COVID, the work we have to do within our communities to better understand each other and to participate in anti racism. But then also just for listeners who are going to work every day and talking to their families, I just feel like voice is such an important thing. Because silence is, so it's just so in some ways, it's not easier always. But it's, it's just really prevalent. And so when you read the story out, like, I've been that person, I'm sitting there, I'm waiting for the right moment, I'm trying not to cry, I start to speak up. And either something in the setting or something in me, says, Hey, don't say that right now. And so yeah, tell me more about just that story and raise your voice and the importance of us speaking up when it's hard.

Kathy Khang  26:38

So I still remember vividly that incident, and had tucked it away and had written it down but had not shared it publicly, just wrote it in my journal, and was processing it internally for apparently years and years. And when I finally sat down to write the outline, and write down stories that I might use in this book, that was one of the first stories that came out. And I remember having the conversation with my editor, who remembers that incident? He was in the room at the time. And the whole sense of how so many of us feel that just like you said, Methodist, it's not, it's not unusual. And I think many of us women of color, have that experience, because we've told we've been told one way or another, that speaking up is dangerous. And it's dangerous. For many reasons. It's dangerous for us as individuals, it's dangerous for our community. And I don't know I didn't have a lot of people to talk about with in regards to what is the cost of not saying what needs to be said, I think I heard a lot about what the risks are, like, oh, this may not look good, or you risk. I don't know, like how people perceive you and future opportunities and think all sorts of things like that. But in the end that story, because it is unique. And also universal, is recognizing that there is power behind words of conviction, and there is power, to heal, and to hurt. And I think we are in a time where folks are more fully I don't know, I'd like to think are fully recognizing how words have been harmful. And I'm hoping that we can shift into a space where we can then encourage one another to speak words of conviction that heal. Because I think in that story, the questions I wanted and eventually raised were questions that in that group setting we were afraid would be harmful. And unless we actually give space, we don't know. And I think that many times when we self censor, we are kind of juggling the cost. Is this going to hurt or is this going to heal? Is this going to be harmful? And I think that too often, we silence ourselves or silence one another because we are afraid that the initial hurt can't be overcome. And you know, again, I think for me in that moment, being an Asian American woman on the younger side. There were a lot of reasons to stay silent. And I think ultimately, I'm always and still gauging how do we ask questions that push us further to recognize what are the gaps? What are we missing? And in that missing in that lack of understanding and lack of knowledge, lack of empathy, what are the tools that we have, or we can gain to bridge that and to bring about healing? So I, you know, even in this time, like I said earlier, I'm still trying to figure out like, what is the conversation? And how and with whom? Do I raise those issues to bring about, you know, deeper understanding is hard, because I can't have coffee with anyone. You know, it's so hard. It's so hard. And, and it doesn't feel right. Because we're all kind of juggling with the uprooted schedules and weird work life. And I know tons of people who have family members or friends who are sick, or, you know, so it feels like this. This may be not, it may not be the right time. And I think that may be as I'm processing out loud with you like, oh, maybe I'm self censoring, maybe I need to just like sit down and call some people up and do a zoom call or write something and invite people to engage? Because I think that story is something I'm still wrestling with, is how do I talk about the things that I'm seeing that I'm, like, frustrated with? 

Bethaney Wilkinson  31:21

Wow, that is, I mean, that's so real. And it's a it's both the question of, like, the very practical logistical how, like you're saying, like, coffees zoom blog, like, right, right. But then there's also I love that question, like, is this going to harm? Is it going to heal? Can one follow the other and I think what I'm processing now in response to you is, it's almost like when we self censor healing isn't even an option. And the harm that's already in the setting, it continues, because there's corruption, and so even not so not saying something is perhaps inherently harmful.

Kathy Khang  31:57

Right. Right. And, and it's harmful to the broader conversation to the relationship, you know, with the person that you're not saying truth to or the community, but also harmful to ourselves, right? Harmful, that we don't know how to trust our gut. I think that's, you know, it's a hard thing. Metrics, there are no metrics for that, right? How do you decide that this, I really need to follow my gut on this, because there have been plenty of times where I followed my gut. And that was a bad idea. Right? But I also think that there are times where it is that kind of like, the values and the things that you really believe in tell you like, you need to see something, you need to do something. And when you don't you then further, tell yourself, you can't trust yourself, you know, you can't trust yourself. And then for me, as a person of faith as a Christian, how can I trust what I call the leadings of the Holy Spirit? If I'm always saying no, no, no, I want safe. I want safe. I want safe. It's complicated.

Bethaney Wilkinson  33:06

Yeah, it's complicated, but not impossible. That's what I hear you saying. And that's what I gathered from your story as well. Like, there's still it doesn't necessarily happen quickly. But it does happen. If we practice it, like you've probably learned, following my gut always like you have to learn by trying and failing and succeeding.

Kathy Khang  33:27

Right, right. Following every whim is not a good idea, right? I mean, we can make it less costly and kind of joke around like, yeah, you know, the amount of flank steak that I ate last night was not wise. But my gut was like, Yes, this is so delicious. And I just need to self soothe. And this is how I'm going to self soothe. And then 20 minutes later, realize, you know what, eating my way into self soothing is never a good idea. And I know that I'm a grown woman, I know that. But why do we do that? Because we want that immediate gratification. And I think it's the same with using our voice is that if we're always looking for that safety, then we will never learn to exercise that muscle, we will never get beyond that immediate safety. And then 20 minutes later, we live with the regret of missing that moment, and an opportunity to speak truth.

Bethaney Wilkinson  34:27

Yeah. I'm so I'm curious to know, you have worked for many years with a variety of organizations. And I know that you're sometimes invited to do consulting around diversity and inclusion and I'll you can flush that out with any other language that makes sense for the work that you do. But I'm curious to hear what have been some of the constructive or helpful ways you've seen organizations really empower and amplify the voices of marginalized people. Have you seen things that have worked that have gone? Well, I want to give our listeners I'm hoping to give them some insights into things that they can do organizationally to help people raise their voice.

Kathy Khang  35:10

Yeah, I think organizations that take diversity and inclusion seriously include everyone top down, and that the commitment is from top down. And that includes not just the C suite, but also places like the board, and recognizing that there are different levels of leadership, and input an opportunity, and that it isn't just enough to bring in somebody who's a consultant, it really is a matter of taking a hard look at who's in the room, how decisions are made, and how they are executed. It's not just oh, well, we have this percentage of women, this percentage of people of color, it's really about processes, not just kind of in the flesh diversity. But how are conversations held? how are decisions made? I was just talking with a couple leaders the other day, talking about hiring and performance reviews, and how to build processes that are not just top down? And how conversations around expectations and metrics and success look like? What does the language around an organization? What does that convey? Because you're swimming in the water of your organization? So you don't know what that water is like, right? Right? It's the fish thing, right? If you're in a fishbowl and you're the fish, you don't know that you're swimming in water. And so I think organizations that take the time to make this a commitment over the long haul, are the ones that are going to find success. And success is not in a hiring number, or a retention number. But it is success over different metrics over time. And so honestly, very few organizations, churches, enter into this conversation thinking that they want this to be a long process. Right? They want to hire a consultant and like have a rapport. And then these are the like the five steps that you implement over maybe a year. So I think that there are the organizations that recognize this is a long term conversation and then build in and schedule time for different levels of leadership to have these conversations ongoing. are the ones that empower all of their people, people of color as well as white majority culture, people because this isn't going to happen. Just on the shoulders of people of color, right? Because we're tired. And we're not paid enough to carry this by ourselves. tell the whole truth. Oh, man. No way. No way.

Bethaney Wilkinson  38:23

Oh, wow. This has been so rich. I have I have so many, so many notes for me that I can't wait to go back and revisit. My last question for you. And this is one that I asked to everyone that I'm that I remember my whole project. It's called the diversity gap. And I'm exploring the gap between our good intentions and good impact, especially as it relates to organizations and diversity. And so I would love to hear from you, in your own words, what is the diversity gap? And how do we close it?

Kathy Khang  38:54

Oh, that is so hard. And that is a great question. And I love how you framed it right? Its intention and impact. And I will shift it into what I have learned as an adult child, and as the parent of adult children is that my good intentions can hurt the people I love the most, because I know them. And because I think my good intentions aren't enough. What I've learned is that if my actions don't actually create the impact of love and flourishing, of trust, my good intentions don't mean poop. And that, over time excuses for good intentions over bad impact. You wrote trust And then the work gets harder. It just gets harder. So I think that diversity gap is, I do think it's a matter of selfishness and, and living in particularly a culture and a country that promotes individualism and pulling ourselves up by these imaginary bootstraps that living life in a way that is for the good of the community and of the whole, that's not part of our collective cultural conversation. And so I think that's part of the diversity gap is that here in the US, we're very selfish people. And that those gaps that are systemic that are built around policy, we will never close that gap. If we're only thinking about ourselves and our immediate community,

Bethaney Wilkinson  40:58

Wow, gosh, that is, it's just full of truth and wisdom, words of conviction that heal for sure. Thank you so much, Kathy, thank you for not only just this conversation, but the work that you do to know yourself to know and serve your community. I'm really honored to have talked to you and I'm excited for people to keep following you in your work. Can you share with us where people can keep up with you and keep learning from you?

Kathy Khang  41:26

Sure. So if you want visuals of life that are sometimes lovely, but rarely polished. I'm on Instagram at MsKathyKhang. And then if you want a little sharper side of me, then I'm on Twitter, same handle at MsKathyKhang, and then folks can find me on Facebook. And I have an author page out there and I can never remember what the name for that is. But you can find me on my author page and follow me there. And I have a blog, KathyKhang.com That I occasionally write.

Bethaney Wilkinson  42:14

Well, I took so many notes during this conversation. Truthfully, I take notes during every conversation, but this one had the most quotable moments. And I literally have all of these bullet points for things that I want to go back and think through more deeply in the days and weeks to come. What's resonating with me most right now is this invitation to speak words of conviction that heal yes and may be painful in the short run. But the reward is healing if we stick with it. So there's some food for thought. Make some time today, tomorrow to capture one of the ideas from this conversation that is resonating with you the most otherwise, I will talk to you all next week. Bye. Thank you for listening to The Diversity Gap podcast. If you've been challenged or inspired by what you've heard, please rate and review the show. You can also subscribe to make sure you never miss an episode. If you have thoughts or questions I'd love to hear from you connect with me at thediversitygap.com or on Instagram @TheDiversityGap. The Diversity Gap podcast is recorded on Muskogee Creek land in Atlanta, Georgia. This episode was produced by Matt Olin for Soul Graffiti Productions.