How to Create a Liberating Organizational Culture w/ Kelly Hubbell-Hinton

Episode Summary: In this episode of The Diversity Gap podcast, Bethaney welcomes her good friend, Kelly Hubbell-Hinton to the show. Kelly works at the intersection of social work, philanthropy, youth development and racial justice. Her perspective is deeply informed by her experience as a woman and member of the Dine' people, born into the Near the Water clan and for the Black Sheep people. In this honest and sincere conversation, Bethaney and Kelly talk about everything from working in a "flat" organizational culture to learning how to find and amplify one's own voice.

Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, organization, philanthropy, element, dei, conversation, diversity, work, identity, learning, important, healing, indigenous, kelly, experiences, questions, community, power, funders, part

SPEAKERS

Bethaney Wilkinson, Kelly Hubbell-Hinton

Bethaney Wilkinson  00:00

I think one of my favorite things about doing diversity and inclusion work racial justice work. It actually makes me think of I heard an interview recently with Austin Channing Brown. And someone asked her why she doesn't really use the language of racial reconciliation anymore. And I love what she said. She said that if the end is justice, then we will reconcile along the way if we've decided to work towards justice and reconciliation becomes a part of the process. And in my experience, as I've gone to different workshops, or as I've engaged in working with people to kind of redesign and reimagine programming, as I'm doing the work in pursuit of justice, I've met some of the most incredible people and it's really true that the relationships we build the friendships, we find the healing cross cultural conversations we get to have as we're pursuing justice can actually change your life. Welcome to The Diversity Gap podcast where we are exploring the gap between good intentions and good impact as it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion. My name is Bethaney Wilkinson and I am your hosts. So last year, I've mentioned this experience a million times to you guys because it was so life changing at the creative reaction labs equity center design immersive, I met a woman named Kelly Hubbell-Hinton. We were in like a breakout group together and very quickly became friends ended up going to bookstores later and eating out together. It was just a lot of fun. And I really wanted to have her on the podcast because of her, just her identity and her experiences. Um, Kelly is a grant writer, a philanthropist or she's involved in the philanthropy world. She's an indigenous woman. She's also incredibly passionate about youth development and equity centered community design. And so we sat down for a conversation about what she's learning and dei and grant writing, and what she's learning about social entrepreneurship. And we also spent a good bit of time talking about just her own journey of learning to find and use her voice for change. So listen to this conversation with Kelly Hubbell-Hinton. Hey Kelly. I'm so glad you're here.

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  02:25

I'm so excited to be in Atlanta. 

Bethaney Wilkinson  02:26

Oh, yeah. This is so great. So Kelly and I met last summer at the creative reaction labs, equity centered community design, thinking immersive. It's a lot of words there. But it was so great, because we headed off and Metro bookstore and got lunch when we eat that time. 

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  02:44

We ate at Momofuku.

Bethaney Wilkinson  02:45

Fuku was so good, like the best ramen ever. It was delicious. Oh, so great. So yeah, we just kept in touch and Kelly does really great work. And so I'm really happy that you're on the podcast.

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  02:54

I'm excited to be here.

Bethaney Wilkinson  02:55

Um, can you share with our listeners a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  03:00

Yeah. So my name is Kelly Hubbell-Hinton. I am dinette. Originally from Arizona. I am born into the neither water clan and for the Blackfeet people. I live in Houston right now with my husband. And I am a philanthropy professional. I'm a social worker. I'm an educator. And I just love talking about racial race and social justice.

Bethaney Wilkinson  03:29

Oh, man. Okay, so you got here to pilot place and told me about your new job? Yeah. And I got very excited and be wanting to ask you all the questions, right. So tell us about where you work. And, and we're just gonna start there.

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  03:44

Yeah. So I transitioned into a new position in the past year. And so the organization that I work for is called FuelEd. And so our mission is to develop emotionally intelligent educators who are building relationship driven schools. And so that work is really powerful and ties into like my belief in empowering youth and my strong belief in emotional intelligence and emotional health for all people. And so this is really focused, this work is really focused on doing that for educators so that they can be emotionally strong and available for the students. And so, yeah, really tied to the mission. Another layer of the work that is really cool is that we are a flat organization, which means that all the partners in our organization are self managed. And so we don't have supervisors. We are accountable to our work, and it's very different for me personally, and also pretty new in terms of nonprofit organizations. And so yeah, we are basically a team of people who have different roles and so we are all responsible for elevating the mission, but also really being able to like maximize our strengths within the work. And so my focus within that work is in the philanthropy side and the fundraising side. And so, yeah, I know, we're going to get into a little bit about that round. But so I'm able to basically for FuelEd, really hone in on my organizational skills, my writing skills to really like elevate this part of the work within the organization. And so all of our teammates just work together in that way, so that we are moving the organization forward. So it's really new, it's really cool. Sometimes it's scary. And sometimes it's, it's hard, because when you have nine people who are all owners of something, there can sometimes be conflict and tension. And so the structure itself is built to absorb that, which is another layer of the uniqueness about the organization itself, given that we all have to be really self aware, we all have to be really like, personally accountable. And so it's just added this new dimension for me of really leaning into, like ownership of my personal mission, and also ownership of an organization.

Bethaney Wilkinson  06:20

Wow. Okay, so did you know that it was going to be a flat organization when you were like, in the hiring process?

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  06:26

Yes, and no, like they mentioned it, but I didn't have an understanding of what that actually meant to do with to do with work. I hadn't looked it up in terms of what it means. And it's very, like, when you look it up, it's very generic and that like, you know, when you say like, everyone's accountable to their work, like, that sounds cool. But then when you actually go in to actually work alongside people, that is much different. The other thing is, it's not necessarily so there's certain frameworks, like I mentioned, holacracy is one of like a framework that exists that corporations use. And so I think, in the nonprofit space, we pull in elements, but it's also it's our own kind of weird, little. Just it's a operates kind of separately from different frameworks, although we lean on those types of things. So yeah, it's been a learning process for me, and definitely something that I've never experienced ever especially been in, like the education system for so long in terms of my work, and also with fundraising spaces within like traditional organizations. And so I think the really powerful thing for me is this idea of looking at hierarchy in a different way. And, and like coming to this understanding that hierarchy can actually be really harmful to work. And so I think that for me, that's something that is new in this new work life I have, yeah. 

Bethaney Wilkinson  08:06

You said that. Even the founder is an equal partner? Yes. Did they start the organization as a fight? Or like fight organization, then change it? Or? Like, what I wonder what about their journey?

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  08:16

Yeah, so the organization was founded in 2012. So even at that, it's it's fairly new in that we've been operating for eight years, the founder, it started as a traditional nonprofit organization, and about two years ago is when the group transitioned into this new structure, and it operated in that way for about a year before I came on. And so yeah, I had these questions too, like, how did you all like just? Did it just work? Did you fold in together? Like, how were the beginning stages, and from the stories there, it was pretty, it was difficult, right? Because it's like, you have this idea of power and these ideas of like, who owns what, and when you collapse that it's it leaves a lot of people questioning, but this is where the organization itself, another layer that is really valued is the idea of voice and speaking up and like that, I think is where and how this it was able to be successful and get to the point that it is now where you have we have nine people who are all working equally and that is because we all are responsible for being like how I said like self aware and self accountable.

Bethaney Wilkinson  09:29

So you let me you talked about this briefly before you mentioned the importance of of trust and a feedback loops and needing to like name and address tensions. How does that go?

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  09:43

Yeah, so well. So an example is like at the beginning of every meeting, we have to check in so your check ins can be whatever, right? So if it's the beginning of the morning, you roll in Sophie we're doing a check in right now. If you'd like you know I'm feeling I felt good, I had a good breakfast, I'm excited to be in Atlanta with my husband. Let's see, I submitted like some work this morning. And so that makes me feel really good. And, and I'm just slightly nervous to be talking on the podcast. So it's just like this idea of like, I'm sharing how I'm feeling. And I'm sharing what's going on in like in the background, and so that everybody has an expectation of like, how I'm showing up into this, like meeting space. And so that's one example of just like, putting it out on the table. And so then people know, the energy that I'm coming with, and so they can shift and they can empathize with me if that's what's needed. And that's been developed over time. Because for me, I think a big part of this journey has really been leaning into my voice, and really coming away from this idea of like, it's too much to share, or I'm too much like for other people to like, know what to do with me kind of thing. And so like, that, is that personal work, right? That ties into me trusting a group of people enough with with myself, and understanding but also expecting that they can do that, in return with me. So when you when I when we talked about, like tensions and conflict arising. That's like the foundation that said, and so in going into, in a situation where people may not necessarily not necessarily agree, it makes that less scary, and it makes it less about us as individuals and more about like the work. So you know, if people aren't agreeing, it's one it's received differently than it would be in like a hierarchical organization where it's like, depending on your position in that hierarchy, it's either I'm telling you what to do as like your supervisor, or like, I'm scared to, like, give you feedback, because you're my supervisor. Yeah. So that power distribution really knocks out an element of fear.

Bethaney Wilkinson  12:02

Wow, that's so good. I've never even thought about that before. Like, because I when I think of the diversity gap or diversity gaps in organizations, I do think a lot about the tensions that arise between superiors and subordinates, I don't know the right way to put it, you know, the people who are in charge and people who aren't in charge and, and how so much confusion and harm can be caused in that power gap, right, due to lack of self awareness due to emotional unhealth, or due to just that fear piece. And so it's really exciting for me to think about and to even imagine what it would look like to work without those constraints. But I also imagine that for my personality type is one that's very security oriented. And so I also imagine that it'd be terrifying to be like, Oh, I'm, I'm in charge of, I'm accountable to my own work. Like, that's a little scary.

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  12:53

Yeah. And it was that in the beginning, right, because I think also, the other part of it is, is you pick up not bad habits, necessarily, but you pick up unintentional like consequences of being in a power dynamic in other organizations. And so for me, like I mentioned, like being able to give feedback to like a supervisor was always so scary. And so I never, I wouldn't say anything. And so you let that like frustration build up, and then you take that home, or you let it like marinate, and so something in the future that ends up being like that could have been small ends up being much bigger. And so it just like snowballs in that way. And so incoming onto the organization initially, like I started to recognize patterns of that in myself, and so really having to like break that down to one stop myself in the moments where I'm like, am I just making like, Am I making too much about this and being able to become more in tune to like myself, without other input without outside influences of like, is this something that is really important to me? If it is that I need to say something? And is this something that's important to me, personally, or is it about somebody else that I need to actually address with? Like, is it an interpersonal thing? Or is it like about an element of work? That's a quick Hey, so here's some feedback, like let's talk about.

Bethaney Wilkinson  14:19

Sure. Um, so you mentioned before that you your team's rolling out a new DEI strategy. Tell me anything about that before you just dropped it in there. 

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  14:30

So yeah, let's talk yeah, so let's see about month six right so like time just feels like it feels like I've been here in this space for like, the past like two years but I think it's also just speaks to like how one powerful but also how right it is for me individually, about six months into my experience, like we started talking about there We're not being like a very specific and streamlined and focused value as part of our organization related to like diversity, equity and inclusion. And so one of the partners alongside with me was just my thought partner and thinking about, like, what does this look like? And also like, what is the best way for our organization to start this conversation? Because my partner at the organization, her name is Jasmine Barnes, she had done work previously in college like related to, like dei spaces and like Critical Conversations work. And so her and I both had experiences of basically like what not to do, like, sure you don't bring everyone together for like a one day thing. And like, everybody dropped bombs, and then like, you all go back to like the workspaces. And I think we've all been.

Bethaney Wilkinson  15:53

It's like intuitive, like, that's what you think you should do. And then it's like, that's not helpful,

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  15:57

Right. It's like, live and learn, right? So it's like, we had gone through experiences where we were like, this is so important to us. And we've experienced it in this way. So we've also Yeah, let some things in this way. And we don't want to do this anymore. So like, I think the biggest thing is like we didn't want to just come in one with our voices telling people what to do. But we were really intentional about making it a phase, like a four phase process in that the first phase started with the individual. And so we rolled out like a timeframe or went around winter break, where we compiled really intentional readings and viewings and like different things to listen to diversity gap being one of the references, and Senate Carol from crater reaction lab, who led the training that you mentioned earlier was part of things that we had referenced for this. And so yeah, so phase one was like individual, do your do your personal work everybody in the organization. And then just for some demographic information, we have three people of color in our organization, and six non people of color. And so it was also the lens was, we need to be safe, like we need to keep ourselves safe in this. And so we not that we would didn't trust people. And not that we thought we were going to be harmed. But it was like more of that like emotional harm and realizing that to unearth some of these conversation points, like we really needed to be to do our personal work ahead of that. So that was phase one. Phase two is we had like a group share out in terms of like we all shared what we learned individually and had some bike process partner time. And then what we're doing now is moving into Phase three is this idea of like now we're drafting language around like what do we collectively decide for organization is like where we stand, and then phase four will be just moving into, like, continue with learning and then more like very specific professional development, because I think the other part of that it that we realized initially was that, although we're people of color, like we're not experts, because we're people of color, right? And that it can't be on us, too, to lead this work necessarily. And so it's one it's pulling in everybody's insights and everybody's experiences, but also like leaning on the people who do this work really well and are like trained to do this really well. And going to them to help us.

Bethaney Wilkinson  18:36

I love that. I feel like that's been a big, there's so many things I want to pull out of what you just said, one of the big shifts for me has been learning how to point people to other people, because I'm much I'm like, Yeah, I know some stuff. So I think about race and diversity all the time. But I'd prefer for you to go sit under someone who is like, literally trained and organizational change management, I can hold your hand for the next two to five years as you figure out what this means for your context. Yeah, just like every day does not mean that I know what you need to do. Right? Yeah, I have a hunch, probably. Let's be honest, I have a hunch. But I can't be that. And so I think that's so wise. I also love how you said, like it, there are phases, and you didn't get to drafting language until phase three. And so I think some people they want to start with, what do you fix and change now? Well, let's throw a I don't know, let's add it to our list of values or let's add some language to this thing. And that is important. But that internal work hasn't proceeded it then that it's not really going to be able to last I would imagine.

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  19:35

Yeah. And I think that it also goes into that ownership piece, right? Because if everybody doesn't, one gets to evaluate and then to share and then like, then get to like formulate it's like then it's only like two or three people's like opinion and so it's easier not that this would happen but it's easier to not put importance on it. Yeah

Bethaney Wilkinson  19:59

Gosh. Okay, so I want to shift gears just a hair, because you mentioned also, we had a very good seven minute conversation before we started recording. And referencing back to that, that you mentioned how in this new role at this new organization, you feel like all of these different parts of your identity are collapsing into themselves into one another. Yeah. And that that's both a scary thing and an awesome thing. So can you share with us about that?

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  20:28

Yeah. So as I mentioned, like, in my intro, like my identity is an indigenous woman. And I grew up, like in a small rural community, like on the Navajo Nation. And so for me, like, my identity is like, so like strong. And so for me, has been, like a guiding force and like all the decisions that I've made, and it's the one element of like, my life that I feel like secure and confident about. However, when you like leave, like your community, as an indigenous person, you often have to, like, create a boundary around that identity, because there's a lot of people who are misinformed about Native American communities. And so it's this element of protection for the self. And so I lived away from Arizona for about 10 years now. And so I've lived in Dallas, I lived in Portland. Like I said, I live in Houston now. And so people in those communities have very different understandings of what it means to be an indigenous person. And so when you show up to work, and when you show up in different community elements, it just becomes a marker for your identity, but less that you get to that I get to, like, embody that. So it's like this compartmentalization of like, my identity and who I am, versus my work that I do. And then, like who I am, as like a community member. And so all of these different identities have existed for a decade, like I'm, like I said, now, and I've like, gotten really comfortable with like, I go home to see my family. And I'm like, I feel like fully myself and I feel fully like my identity. And then I go back to work. And I'm Kelly, who happens to be Native American, but does like this specific particular work. And then like, I'm Kelly in the community, who is like really like trying to move social justice forward really trying to move Youth Empowerment forward. And, yeah, like, I've been operating in that way for so long that in within this organization, and within this specific like this dei work. There was a layer of like vulnerability and like that the self reflection that I talked about that that compartmentalizing in that way is extremely exhausting. Yeah. And this works specifically because there's so much vulnerability within it required me to share out that struggle and share out with like, my partners within the organization because the work was so important to me, that it's like I didn't want to censor myself and not fully show up to like this conversational share out after the individual reflection. And in that, it's like hearing yourself talk about it is such a, like, crazy experience that it forced me to see how harmful like that was for me, like how I was hurting myself by being so strict about compartmentalizing things. And so putting it down was one felt really good. It was so tiring, but to like, like kind of wrecked me a little bit, right because I'm getting emotional now. But um, so like I was saying, like, it wrecked me because I realized that I was really limiting like my power. Because how special is it to fully embody like being an indigenous woman at work and in the community? And how much my community needs me to be that in the world. So yeah, so so everything collapsed in on itself, it was really a good struggle. And I think as you can see, I'm like still working through it and still still finding like my way within that but also like, it feels so good. And like I mean, I'm crying but I feel like that's part of it, right? Like it's this layer of like, it's so it's like two layer of healing. It's emotional. No healing, it's like, identity healing. It's also like letting myself like forgiving myself for not being authentic in, in every space for so long. But also like man, like, this person like that, in putting that down is like like this. If more people could get to this place, like think about how powerful like the movement could like become, because we're no longer censoring ourselves and we're no longer trying to, like hide elements of ourself to either succeed or to. To protect ourselves. Yeah, yeah.

Bethaney Wilkinson  25:42

Wow. So, gosh, thanks for sharing. Yeah. So do you think that joining this new organization, not that this, I think this healing would have come to you eventually, anyway? Do you think that being a part of this organization in the way that it's designed has facilitated or open doors for the kind of feeling you've been able to experience?

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  26:06

Yeah. When I think you're right, that I would have gotten to this place for sure. Because I think, in like my personal journey, I'm sorry, I've been searching for, like a way to return. And I, but I think that the organization itself, gave me like, the skills to be able to vocalize that a bit more, because I think that this is part of also, I mean, not true for all communities of color. But I think that it's it's true enough, where we're not familiar with talking about our feelings, and we're not really shown how to go deep a lot, because of that protection protection element. And so being able to be vulnerable, I think is is and seeing that model than other people is part of the reason why like I was able to get I think quicker to this point. And another cool element of like, the organization is bad. Because we promote, like, emotional intelligence and educators, we promote it for ourselves. And so like, the organization like has a counseling stipend for like all of its partners, and so that's a big part of it, too, is like, doing like the work with other people as well are professional people as well. So that's also kind of like a cool layer that I that that's new for me in terms of something that I wouldn't have accessed on my own. Yeah, yeah.

Bethaney Wilkinson  27:34

I think that's super, it's special in so many ways. And I know that a lot of the people who listen to this podcast are organizational leaders, or they have some sort of some degree of influence in shaping the culture of whatever they're creating. And so I think it's really powerful to hear how the way in which a nonprofit organization is designed can be a place that facilitates radical transformation in the lives of the people who are a part of it, right. And I just think that's something people need to hear, like, you can change the way this is happening. And it can move from being a place that functions in like supremacist power to being a place that functions and power that's liberating and restorative and healing and, and that it just, it's just more good, you know?

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  28:18

Yeah, yeah. And it's true, right? Yeah. And like, we're still a 501 C three, like, we're still like getting funding, we're still like moving the work forward. And so it's like, it's not an either or situation. Yeah, yeah.

Bethaney Wilkinson  28:31

And so I know, this is shifting gears, again, we can circle back to anything that you want to keep talking about. I know that philanthropy is a big part of your work and as a grant writer, and then and just beyond. So when you think about philanthropy, I love to hear as it intersects with this, like diversity, equity and inclusion piece. Specifically, what are some of the gaps you see, just what have you learned in your philanthropy journey?

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  28:56

Yeah. So I have been in the philanthropy space for this is about my fourth year. And so it's not something that I was familiar with, or like trained to do. And so for me, it's really coming in with like a novice lens. And so philanthropy itself is this idea of like the give and take of like resources. Most of those resources are money. And so, like the philanthropy sector, which I like to use, as opposed to fundraising, because fundraising is only one sided. So it's like the people who are within nonprofit organizations like asking for money for different things asking for resources to fund their work. But philanthropy takes out a different layer to also include the people who are giving the money. And I think that that is a really important shift because getting money to fund work is important but where you're getting it from is also equally important and how people within like foundations and individual people who have like wealth that are able to create tribute to the good work that's happening. It's also important for us to be looking at them as well. And so in that, like diversity, equity inclusion lens, philanthropy is really something that I think is not talked about enough, especially when it comes to equity and thinking about who has the money to be able to give, what do they look like? And what do they represent? And who are the people who are needing the money? And what do they look like, and what do they represent? Yeah, powerful question. Yeah. And I think we can all make make assumptions about what that looks like. And those assumptions are true in like the philanthropy space. I brought this book because I wanted to share with you that's a really good read. I don't know if you've had started, I'm like halfway through it. Yeah, yeah. So it's called decolonizing wealth by Edgar Villanueva. And this is like, when I was starting out in the philanthropy space, I was very much just focused on the grant writing. And so for me, it was really great to be able to, like utilize like a creative writing skill set to put content out that was focused on like the work that I was doing with youth. And as I got further and further into that realm, like there was starting, I was starting to notice, especially as I was going out into the community and meeting with people and meeting with funders, that the distribution of a race within these spaces is very skewed. So it's mostly like ultra wealthy white people who are the ones who are giving the resources. And then it's mostly like communities of color, that are of like lower economic status that are receiving the resources, even though there's like a nonprofit that's like the conduit between those two. And that also being like a fundraiser of color, in that, like middle space between the people giving money and the people who ultimately the resources go to serve, is also really skewed. And so. So it was just so it made me question a lot of things. And so I wanted to learn for myself, like a little bit more. And so the decolonizing wealth book was really powerful for me, because it's the split perspective, one that an indigenous perspective, which for me, is really important, especially as I mentioned, my identity. And I think that for me, and another part of what I'm realizing is like that there needs to be more indigenous storytellers. And there needs to be more indigenous perspective in all spaces. And so this was really cool. One that somebody in the philanthropy space, who is indigenous was able to create this resource. But basically, it's this idea of using money as healing. And so the book talks a lot about the historical components of how wealth was built. And I think within philanthropy, a layer that's not talked about is how people who are wealthy that are able to give the resources, how they actually came about that wealth. And we know that historically, like that was probably rooted in some sort of a sort of harm, and some sort of like, oppression and some sort of maximizing on like the work of people of color. And so without folding that into the conversation of how people got money to begin with, you can't actually use money as healing.  So it's one identifying that and then to the communities who are receiving the resources, also undergoing a layer of healing for themselves to determine like, what are we willing to take? And what are we not willing to take and really having, like a values driven conversation around that and and taking some of the power away from just taking anything and really determining like, how, how can we either diversify, who were asking for funds for how are we using, like community in kind resources? How are we like maximizing, like what we already have to accomplish what we need to accomplish? So I think that that all of those elements are, are really fascinating and really cool. And I I think for me, like within philanthropy really like am focused on elevating more of those conversations, because I think it's really important. One really significant learning for me recently was that was the values based component of like this work. I had a really interesting conversation with one of my partners at the organization around like, my values when it comes to this work. So my value in philanthropy and in like, my organization is representation. And so for me, like I will go to battle for any initiative, any opportunity, where like representation can be elevated. And often when conflict arises either in any sort of funding component, I think, is when that value is not elevated. And so there's other values are related to philanthropy like influence, power service. And I think for me, the lesson learned was like not that people's values are more, more or less good or bad, but that they're different. Sure. And that when those differences happen, is where good conversation could happen.

Bethaney Wilkinson  35:39

As a gracious, good way to put it, when there's a value conflict, we have an opportunity to learn. But it's true.  It's true. And as I was reflecting on like that specific point, I think that it's even more important in terms of like opportunity for conversation is when a funder has a different value from a Fundy. So I think a funder and this is an assumption, but I think it's I think it is based in some truth is that funders have a value often of service and a value of influence. And so for me, like as a fundraiser, and so for a person who's looking for funds, those aren't top values for me, right? So it's like, for me, as I've mentioned, like, representation is huge. So how are we going to come together if representation for me is important? Service for you is important, like I meeting your need, because you are servicing your your value of being in service to somebody is being met. But it that may not necessarily be true for me. And so it's like, so I think that that's a really needed like step forward in terms of like, the interaction between funders and fundies. Wow, that's so good. You're like, I feel like in all these different areas of your life, you're on the forefront of something, which is probably why it feels so terrifying. Like you're literally charting new pathways and asking new kinds of questions. And, and so I do want to ask you about untangled pathways. Because I know this is another another thing that you do all your free time. Tell us more about that. And what have been some of your challenges and finding funding for this particular initiative.

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  37:20

Yeah, so I am a founding partner for Untangle Pathways. My husband, Ahmad Hinton is the founder. And so this was he was he founded it a couple years ago. It's not a 501 C three, but it's a fiscally sponsored initiative. And so it's focused on equipping youth with like, the skills to be able to be successful in the technology world, not specifically focused on like one element, but more. So understanding like the design process and the problem solving process of what is required to be in like the tech industry. And so we were doing a lot of like, pop up coding events in Houston over the past couple years. And we're finding really cool kids, like lots of kids of color were showing up. And we're really interested. And they were so they were really interested in really like wanting to move forward with programming. But we were realizing that just like showing them like a skill set in coding wasn't deep enough. And so we shifted into this idea of, we need to think more about like the, the back end of that, like, what does it take to if you want to be a gamer, and like coding games like you there's an element of like math and skill sets and problem solving that comes before that before you can even get into like the ins and outs of that. And so last summer, we did a design thinking workshop with some youth and walked through a simplified version of like the design thinking process. And it was just so cool to see them latch on basically, they chose a problem in school that they had, and were able to narrow down and got into teams, and they had to come up with like a solution. It could be tech based it could it didn't have to be. And the element that was really powerful was that they presented it to their family members. So the family members showed up, and they got to ask questions. And so it was this idea of like, look at all like one showcasing like this amazing work that your kiddos did in two days. And then to the parents showing interest and asking questions was really phenomenal. Within that initiative, we were able to raise funds for like a part a portion of it. And then some of it was just like because we loved what we were doing like we funded the rest and did what we needed to do to make it happen. But what we were finding is that and this kind of falls into the philanthropy lens to is as people of color who have limited networks of wealth and access to those networks It is extremely hard for like these like startup projects and these dream projects that so many people in just so many of my like, personal network also are trying to launch for that to really like get the funding to get the wings to like really be successful. And so after the summer, we had to take a pause. And so we're in planning phase now to figure out like, what's next? One, because being a fiscally sponsored organization is is difficult in itself, because you don't have a lot of the benefits of being like your own organization, but also that it's hard to launch a 501 C three, I think that that's expensive and expensive. Yeah, right. Right. And that to sustain that, right. So it's like, it's, it's different than like a business model where you're like selling a product or service of some sort, where there's some sort of like revenue stream that there's potential for revenue stream. I think a lot of nonprofits struggle, because most of the heart and energy behind those, those missions are that they are in service of communities, as opposed to like, them being like a revenue based stream. And so So yeah, so it's difficult, it's hard. We had to pause. We are gonna definitely have like the motivation to keep it going. Because we just it was just so so powerful. But yeah, I but I wanted to share it here because the reality is, it's difficult to fund a dream project on the side, in addition to a full time job and in addition to life, and in addition to not having the networks that are needed to really like self fund.

Bethaney Wilkinson  41:48

Yeah, I think that's I even looking to the future of this podcast, I want to talk to more people about that diversity gap and how, and I don't know the solution. Like I don't know how to fix it, because it's not like, oh, well, we need all of the wealthy people to give to this, but maybe we do, but maybe not. Because that's weird, you know? Yeah. But you're doing such good work, like so many founders of color are and those limited networks. It's a real problem. Yeah. And it's systemic. Yeah. It's not just personal. Yeah, Dimmick problem. Yeah. And so yeah, thanks for giving voice to that. 

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  42:21

Yeah, for sure. And that's an idea. That's a brewing. So. More to come. I'm hoping Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Bethaney Wilkinson  42:29

I'm okay. So I want to start to land the plane here a little bit. Before I ask my last question. I want to know if there's anything because I know you and your you have lots of thoughts about things. Is there anything on your mind that we haven't talked about that you want to give voice to?

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  42:44

Yeah. I think one thing that has bubbled up for me over the past month, and just in diving deeper into like, this dei space is this idea of intentional healing. And one of the conversations that I was having was like this recognition of like, there being intentional harm that has taken place throughout history. And one, like leaning into that a little bit more to really like, learn about different people's experiences of harm. So I have a better understanding, but also coming to terms with this idea of because intentional harm took place, there has to be intentional healing. And so I think within like this, like diversity, equity inclusion lens, the people who are doing like this good work are like these intentional healers. And I just am like, I gravitated towards so many other people who are leading in this field. And I think, one that they should be celebrated. And I think that, I guess it's just more so like a plug for, like, thank you and like, for doing the work because, like, it's creating this, like outward, I don't know, like energy where I feel like people are, are looking for something. And I think that this may be like that layer of it is really like sitting in the history and sitting but also, like, sitting in the healing too. Yeah. And I think the other part too, is that it takes time. I think that that's the other part that I'm realizing. And for me, a pretty big lesson that I learned recently was this idea of letting go of like, like giving people the time to come to their own healing. Because I may be ready to go like, I may be ready to like have these conversations, dig in, like let's get into it, let's talk about it. Let's name it, and not everybody is there and so like, knowing when to like put the gas on but then also knowing when to be like to step back to give people the opportunity to get there themselves. And that's hard. Because of what I want everybody to put the guess.

Bethaney Wilkinson  45:10

Yeah, yeah.

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  45:12

Yeah. 

Bethaney Wilkinson  45:13

Yeah, I love that. Because there is, I mean, there is so much intentional healing that has to happen. I don't talk about it a lot on on this podcast or anywhere except for my close friendships, but like about how much emotional labor and alleged emotional labor but just emotional work and self awareness and like how much that's a part of my work, even just leading this project? Because if I'm not intentionally healing, then it's kind of feels like a disaster. internally. Yeah. So I am really grateful you name that.

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  45:46

Yeah, yeah. And I think that that's like the social worker in me, that's always gonna be like, can I cancel the work on yourself?

Bethaney Wilkinson  45:58

This has been such a treat. And as you get to learn from you, just like your life, your expertise, your wisdom, all the things. And my last question for you is high in most most episodes, all of them. But when you look at the world, when you step back and look at all the things that you do all the things that your hands are in, what is the biggest diversity gap that you see? And you may have already spoken to this, but how do you think we close it?

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  46:22

I think that we can close the diversity gap by being honest. And I think that honesty has to happen with trust. So I think that relationship building is extremely important to bridging the diversity gap. Because I would not have ever been able to have like experiences like with my white co workers, if I didn't want first build a relationship with them, to trust them with my story. And then, because like when that happens, another cool layer that I can speak to that happens is accountability, like is transferred. So it's no longer my personal accountability to carry this for me. It's like I built a relationship with you, I trust you. I've shared my story. And now like, there's some accountability for you to bridge this diversity gap alongside with me. Oh, good. Yeah.

Bethaney Wilkinson  47:26

That's so powerful. I'm just thinking of like, Yeah, that's so good. Because the transfer of accountability. And there's a lot of I know, black women in my life and women of color who feel like we, we don't know that we ever get to the place of transferring the sense of responsibility we feel to fix it. Yeah. And I'm working on that. It's like, I'm a stop here. The rest is up to you. Yeah. But I think that's so profound.

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  47:49

And I think too, it's, it's the human part of it, too, is like, is just because he was saying like in terms of like people taking time, like, just because you transfer that Academy doesn't mean people always going to get it right, either. But that's, you can't control that.

Bethaney Wilkinson  48:07

No. So wise, thank you, Kelly, you're the best you. If people want to follow you or support you or like get involved in anything that you're doing, how can they do that?

Kelly Hubbell-Hinton  48:19

I don't have anything like public social media outside of my personal, but they can find me at on the fuel Ed Schools website. So www dot fuel, Ed schools.org. Great. That's perfect. Yeah, cool.

Bethaney Wilkinson  48:35

Thank you. So as usual, there were a couple of things that really resonated with me from my conversation with Kelly, a, it was just awesome to talk to her because we're friends. And that's fun. But really the two things I have in mind for you. The first is I love this idea of a fire organization. Some of you have probably heard of this before, and it was just new to me. But there's something really awesome that happens. And we're able to level the playing field and really own our part and do our work and share power equally. And so I'm wondering for you, you probably can't like change your entire organizational structure to make it a flat organization where you're all equal partners. But I'm wondering what might it look like on your team or with people that you're leading? Like, what might it look like to level some of that playing field? Yeah, I'm just curious, like, what could it be like to share power? I hope that question is generative for you. And the second thing that I want to highlight from my conversation with Kelly, is I love how she discussed how being in a flat organization helped her to find the significance of her voice. And I don't know I think if you have been in a context where you've been routinely disempowered or if you are a racial or ethnic and underrepresented minority or an under invested group, it's it can be really difficult to know What your unique voice even sounds like and so I guess my encouragement to you is if you feel like you don't know what your unique voice is, what might it look like to find places where you can practice using it so that as you're advocating for change, you can do so in ways that are authentic to you. That's all I've got friends. Thank you for listening to The Diversity Gap podcast. If you've been challenged or inspired by what you've heard, please rate and review the show. You can also subscribe to make sure you never miss an episode. If you have thoughts or questions I'd love to hear from you connect with me at thediversitygap.com or on Instagram @TheDiversityGap. The Diversity Gap podcast is recorded on Muskogee Creek land in Atlanta, Georgia. This episode was produced by Matt Olin for Soul Graffiti Productions.