Technology, Identity and Diversity at Work w/ Denise Reese

Episode Summary: In this episode of The Diversity Gap podcast, Bethaney has a conversation with Denise Reese, Senior Practice Manager for Amazon Web Services. Denise shares her story of wrestling with her racial identity, being a nerd, and navigating a winding journey in technology. They also talk about how diversity is impacting the technology industry, including challenges and opportunities!

Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

folks, diversity, people, experiences, podcast, companies, bethany, denise, space, question, opportunity, mom, create, friends, story, technology, organization, diverse, life, lead

SPEAKERS

Bethaney Wilkinson, Denise Reese

Bethaney Wilkinson  00:00

A thing I always appreciate about people who've had unconventional paths in life is that their experience helps them to have unconventional perspectives on almost everything. This is one of the reasons I believe podcasting and sharing stories is so important. Because we learn things from people who've had experiences that are drastically different from our own. It makes me wonder, what are the gifts and each of us and then each of the unconventional parts of our stories and our experiences? What if we didn't feel the need to hide the things that set us apart, but could bring those things to bear in our everyday lives and leadership? Welcome to The Diversity Gap podcast where we are exploring the gap between good intentions and good impact as it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion. My name is Bethaney Wilkinson and I am your host. Hey, so for today's podcast, you get to listen in on my conversation with Denise Reese. Denise is a Senior Practice Manager for Amazon Web Services. There are so many things I love about this conversation. And our conversation kind of has two parts. The beginning is really focused on the niece's story, and the various twists and turns that led to where she is today. She grew up in a military family had some ups and downs and discovering her trajectory. And she talks about the mentors who went out of their way to see her grow in her leadership, it was incredibly inspiring to me to hear from someone whose story isn't a plus b equals c, but whose career and life work has gone on a very windy yet purposeful path. And then the second part of our conversation is hyper focused on diversity in tech, we talk about finding new talent, about the immense opportunity there is for training diverse candidates for emerging economies, and about the role that leading a diverse life plays and leading a diverse team. Denise is brilliant, kind, incredibly self aware. And I loved learning from her, I know you will to enjoy. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me about not only diversity, but just who you are in the work that you do. For the listeners. Can you just tell us a little bit about who are you and what you actually do? 

Denise Reese  02:31

Yeah, sure. So thanks so much for having me, Bethany. This is a real treat. And I always I actually get a little bit squeamish when folks want to talk to me, because I'm like, I'm just Deniz. But, you know, I guess I do have an interesting story. And so with that being said, I am currently with Amazon Web Services, I actually started a new role with them at the beginning of July, so July 8, so coming up to two months. So I lead a district for the AWS pro serve or professional services organization. So we are the subject matter experts that help our clients to really optimize their migration to the Amazon cloud.

Bethaney Wilkinson  03:17

Okay. Oh, well, I want to get as we talk more into your story and how you ended up not only at Amazon, but in the tech space in general. But before we get there, I love to ask all of my interviewees about their own racial identity, journey and story, because I think it's important and really interesting. And so I'd love to hear from you. When did you first become aware of the fact that you had a race or an ethnic identity? When did that first become apparent to you?

Denise Reese  03:47

Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I, it's interesting, um, you know, maybe when I was younger, by younger, I mean, probably, maybe five, six years old. My father is darker skinned, and my mom is fairer in complexion. And I remember walking into the store with my mom and asking her one day, Mommy, are you white? Because in a kid's mind, you know, it is literally white and black and mom is light. So she must be white and dad is black. So yeah, so I guess maybe then, you know, and I remember my probably, I guess that had to be like four or five. And so I remember my mom telling me, you know, No, baby, um, you know, I'm black just like you are. I'm just a lighter shade of black than you and daddy. And so that's when I knew okay, I'm black. And, you know, it wasn't a it wasn't a thing. But I knew that that's what I was at at that moment. So actually pretty young, I guess if you if you think about it.

Bethaney Wilkinson  04:51

Yeah. Was there a point as you maybe got a little older where it wasn't only a thing for you and your family, but it became like a larger social reality?

Denise Reese  05:01

You know, it's. So my background is really interesting in that my dad was in the Air Force. And so I was raised in the military. And so if you look at all of my photos from childhood, it looks like many United Nations contingency, right? Because it's, you know, we were on base and we had kids from, from all ethnicities, and then when we lived abroad, there were folks from, you know, various countries. And so I've always been in a very diverse environment. And it was, it was actually never a real issue for me, until, I think when so we were stationed in Germany, and then moved from Germany to Nellis Air Force Base in Las Vegas. And I started then, and that was, you know, elementary school, kind of knowing that there were some differences between me and some of the other kids that I went to school with, but it wasn't like a thing. And then I did have a moment where, when I got into middle school really was when I started to really understand that the nuances that exist and so for me, how that played out was, you know, again, raised military very diverse experiences at this stage. And I was in seventh grade, and I had friends, you know, that were, I was always of the mindset, I'm gonna, like, who likes me, and, you know, when you're, when you're a military kids, you just kind of learn how to kind of ebb and flow, and you just kind of fall in line with the folks that like you, you know, regardless of what their ethnicity or racial makeup is. And I had two really close friends that their family was not military, but their mom actually worked on base and worked in my dad's unit. And so our families just became great friends as it tends to happen. And Stacy and Alison are their names, they're twins. And we became like, you know, we were like peanut butter and jelly, like, those were my girls. And I ended up kind of getting close to a lot of their friends as well. And there were more white folks in my circle than black. And the other dynamic is because of the way I speak, and even more so the way that I spoke when I was in middle school, and even into high school, because, you know, I've gone from Germany to Las Vegas, you know, so very west coast. And then, by this point, I'm in South Carolina. And I started to realize that I was very different during that time, and all of that to say, My Earth science teacher, Mrs. Williams, actually called a conference for my parents. And I thought I was in trouble. I didn't know what was happening. I was doing good in her class, you know, and when you're a military, family, if your parent, whoever is the active duty parent, if they have to leave base for anything, they've got to tell, you know, their commanding officer, and it just, it's a thing, right. And so I remember my mom saying, Look, whatever happened, like, let us know, because, you know, let's, let's just deal with it now. And I'm like, I don't know, I don't know. And so, my parents get to the school, and my teacher called a conference, because she was concerned that I had too many white friends. Wow. And this was an African American teacher. And now, you know, when I look back on that, and needless to say, it didn't went in well, for her. My parents had some very choice words for her. Because, you know, firstly, like, why are you scheduling a conference to tell me this number one? And then secondly, you know, I was raised in an environment where my parents encouraged me, to, to embrace people, like for whoever or whatever they were, or are. And so, you know, her mindset was just, it just completely opposed everything in terms of the way that that I was raised. And so I think that was a real defining moment for me. Because this is a teacher, right? And, you know, someone that I trust, and who, really, when I think about it, she just had very different experiences from what I had had, right, by that point I lived in a different country, have lived in in different states had been traveling a lot. And, you know, that's an experience that maybe she would never have or certainly hadn't had, up until that point. And so now that I'm older, you know, I think about it very differently. But I mean, that really struck me when, you know, when I was younger, and so I think that's probably the moment where it was certainly a turning point for me.

Bethaney Wilkinson  10:00

Yeah. Wow, that's such an interesting story. And I was gonna ask you my next question was, in retrospect, now that you're older, how do you look back on that moment? Like, are there any new findings or insights? or new perspectives that you have now that you're an adult? 

Denise Reese  10:17

Yeah, I think, you know, kind of I kind of hit on it a little bit. Bethany Right. Like, you know, this is a teacher who probably is still in Columbia, South Carolina, maybe she's not. But you know, she had been, I think she went to college in in South Carolina. She was born and raised in South Carolina. So she had a very just a narrow, insular view of the world, right. And here I am this precocious seventh grader. And, you know, and I've always asked a lot of questions, and been very curious and precocious. And so I think she had an issue with that, because it was different, you know, it was very different probably from a lot of her other students that she had come in contact with. And so now I look at it through that lens. But I tell you, you know, when it happened, you know, I thought I'd done something wrong. Or, you know, and of course, my parents encouraged me, and they were like, No, you you're not the issue here, your teacher is the issue. But then, you know, after that happened, I think I became, you know, certainly aware of really how I was treated even with my other students, or with other students, and that I was going to school with, and I didn't realize it until kind of after the fact but a lot of the black kids didn't really like me, because I'm this different kid, right. And I've always been a little bit awkward, kind of follow the beat of my own drum and did my own thing, because of all of these rich experiences that I had. And it's interesting, but I do look at it very differently now that I'm older, but then I tell you, it didn't feel good. And you know, again, certainly because of the way that I was treated at the time by, you know, other kids that I went to school with, it was like, Oh, wow, like you really are different.

Bethaney Wilkinson  12:07

Yeah, it's interesting. I something we talk about on the podcast occasionally, and that I think about a lot is how our categories for race are very fixed and narrow. And well, our ideas about what crap like what classifies you as black or black enough, or white or white enough, or whatever the race or ethnicity might be? One of my hopes through this podcast, and then really, through my life's work is to help people continue to be more nuanced about all the different intersections that impact our understanding of who we are correct?

Denise Reese  12:43

Yeah, no, it's, you know, I think it's important for folks to recognize, and I think there's more openness to this point. And now just given the world that we're in, and because there is so much discussion around diversity, and inclusivity, in all of its forms, right. But I think, you know, we are not a monolithic people, irrespective of what race, you identify as, what box you check, there's a spectrum, right, and you don't have to be this one particular way of being, you, you can be who you are, and still be very much woman, very much African American, you can be all of those things. But it doesn't mean that you speak a certain way, or you move through the world a certain way. We're very different. And we have different ways of thinking and doing and being and that's, that's okay.

Bethaney Wilkinson  13:35

Absolutely. So I want to I want to switch gears just a little bit. And it builds on what you're sharing here. But I'd love to hear more about your professional journey. How did you arrive that, but you're doing now at Amazon. And truthfully, I come out of like this faith based, nonprofit sector. And so even just reading through your LinkedIn page, I'm like, I didn't even know these kinds of jobs existed. Like, oh, my goodness, what does? What does Denise do? And how did she even know that she wanted to do these things? And so if you could share, yeah, more about how you got into technology? And what brought you to Amazon? Yeah, for sure.

Denise Reese  14:13

So it is a long and winding road, Bethany. It's full of twists and turns. And it's very non traditional. And, you know, in full disclosure, there was a time when I really didn't tell my story and its totality because I was ashamed. Because it is different. And you know, I graduated from high school in the Netherlands in back in 1990, which seems so long ago, but it was during the time where there was no you know, no internet. So we're pre internet pre cell phones. And I came back to the states to go to college and my parents were in still in the Netherlands. So my my mom and dad drove me and my two little brothers drove me from we lived in care karada in the Netherlands and when I took a flight back to the States through Frankfurt, Germany. So they literally drove me to Frankfurt and put me on a plane at 18. And I had never been away from home longer than like two weeks. Wow. And so yeah, you know, in retrospect, I'm like, yeah, it probably wasn't the best thing to do, I should have, you know, either taking a gap year or, you know, there were options for me to go to school abroad. But I was just, you know, I was certain that I wanted to come back to the US to, to go to college. And so I was at University of southwestern Louisiana, and ended up only staying for a year and a half, so close to two years. So I did a couple of semesters. And now looking back, I realized that I went through a severe severe depression, Bethany, I mean, it was that I just recently started talking about this aspect of the journey, because I didn't know what to call it then. I just thought I was, you know, just a little bit, Bly, just couldn't get motivated, you know, you call it all sorts of things. And then, you know, back then people weren't really talking about mental health and mental well being, and spiritual well being in the way that we are today. But I now know I was majorly majorly depressed. And so I and I, at one point stopped going to class, I was sleeping all day. Just it was, it was bad. And so I ended up resigning from from school. And I was in Lafayette, Louisiana, went back to New Orleans, where we had family, and kind of, you know, just kind of bounced around from job to job. And then, you know, eventually I was working in retail, and then realize, you know, this is not what I want to be doing with my life. I don't want to be, you know, living with family, I always had big dreams goals for myself. And so I called my parents, they were back in the States, and my dad came to New Orleans and picked me up and brought me to Tampa, where they were, where they were living. And, you know, I've always had a love for tech. And so, you know, I started selling phone systems for at&t, Atlantic, and did really well at that and was all you know, was really interested in not just the, the business aspect of selling these phone systems, but then, you know, what that meant, like how things connected and you know, going back a bit, you know, I said this earlier that I was a little bit of a little awkward, I was a complete nerd is what let's call it what it is. And, you know, I have always been interested in in all things tech and engineering, my dad did electronics communications, in the Air Force, and always had like Popular Mechanics magazines, and was always taking things apart and putting putting them back together working on the car, and I was like, right there with him. And I got my first computer when I was probably nine or 10 years old, it was a ti 99 for a, that you had to plug into the the television became the monitor. And I remember, you know, I took basic programming classes, so I'm dating myself, but I took basic programming. When I was in elementary school, like, during the summers, like other kids were out doing their thing. And I was like, in front of a computer taking basic programming so that we know like, how nerdy I was. And so then, you know, in high school, I did take COBOL as a, as an elective. So I've always, always, always loved tech. And so, you know, as I'm trying to, you know, figure out what I want to do with my life. I'm like, Okay, I don't want to sell at&t phone systems forever, went and worked in customer service, didn't want to do that for too long, and ended up in a pretty senior role for a call center in that process, workers compensation claims, and even did a stint at the Postal Service, working from nine at night till 530 In the morning doing data entry, and I quickly realized, yeah, I don't want to do that either. And so I, you know, I went back to school, and wasn't really ready. Even then, you know, by this time, I'm in my, in my mid 20s, I wasn't really ready for the traditional college experience. And so, around this time is when everyone was getting their Microsoft certifications. And I thought, You know what, I can do that, because I'd always had that like that love for technology, the love for learning and being curious has always been an inherent part of who I am. And so I decided to do my Microsoft certification to do my MC SE. And this was right around the time that Windows 2000 was coming out. And so I had done the previous version, and I was told, okay, if you want to get recertified, you're gonna have to go back through the program again, and then take the windows 2000 version, and I thought, Okay, this is getting to be ridiculous. So around this time, companies were coming in, and, you know, telling us to come and join their firms, right everybody I mean, it's You know, pre y2k dot com bubble is like big and vast and you know, money and capital is flowing like water in this company called Open Network Technologies game. And you know, I'd spoken to a couple of other smaller software companies and even some other larger companies that were focused on things like cold fusion, which again dating myself, right, which that was the peak of technology back in the 90s. And so open network came in, and they did identity and access management. So, you know, I kind of had an idea of what that was, but not really, and was talking to their vice president of sales, and his name is Shane Whitlatch. Shane is still someone that I count him and, and Curt Long, who was the founder of open network, they are the reason why I'm where I am today, we're still connected on LinkedIn, I reach out to them from time to time and thank them, every time something major happens in my career, I always reach out to them. Because if it weren't for them, taking a chance on me, I definitely wouldn't be where I am today. But shame, you know, kind of pulled me aside and he's like, Denise, do you really want to be on the other end of helpdesk, and I'm like, not really, but I'm gonna make great money. And you know, it'll be a good job. And I'll get my foot in the door somewhere. And I'll figure out the rest later. And he's like, Well, have you ever thought about actually selling technology?  I'm like, No, I didn't even know that that was a thing. And so, you know, he starts to tell me about the software that they had created at Open Network. And this was just before HIPAA became a thing before Sox. And it was really around, you know, being able to ensure that the right people had access to the right information at the right time. And they had a inside sales role that they hired me for no experience in the in that space. But Shane saw something in me and he's like, I think you can do this, and I think you, you'd be really good at it. And I started with Open Network as an inside sales rep. Actually cold calling, and doing remote software demos, and setting up appointments for our outside sales representatives blew away my target, did you know great things. And you know, for maybe three and a half, four years into working for open network, they started to expand the company and asked me if I want it to move to an international location. And at the time, the option was either the UK just outside of London, or Sydney, Australia. And so I chose to work on developing the UK and Europe. And so started kind of calling companies from the US. So I would get up at, you know, four or five o'clock in the morning, go into the office because of the timezone difference between the east coast and in the US and make cold calls. And you know, reach out to folks. And we started to grow. And so the opportunity came for me to actually relocate to the UK. And I started off saying that, you know, I would stay for, you know, it was going to be two or three weeks, and then three weeks turned into well, why don't you stay for a quarter, and then end of the quarter came? And it was like, Well, why don't you go back home, get rid of your apartment, because I still have my life in Florida. And, you know, move out of your apartment, put your things in storage and just come back and maybe stay for like another three months. So by this point, it's six months, then it becomes a year. And then I've got to make a decision on okay, I've got to now pay taxes, either in the US or in the UK and figure this out.

Bethaney Wilkinson  23:48

Wow. Well, what's so gosh, that's so fascinating. And what's so interesting to me about your story is that it's like it's equal parts, your ambition and hard work. But then also these leaders are open network who took a chance on you. And then there was also this friend who was able to kind of direct you to the right programs to help level up, you know, your leadership, your expertise, or other people's confidence and your expertise. Um, that's just, it's, it's amazing to hear all the different pieces that have been at play in getting you to where you are. Yeah,

Denise Reese  24:26

I feel Bethaney, I tell you, I feel so blessed and so fortunate because, you know, I know my story would not be possible without the folks that did take chances on me along the way. But you know, being a person of faith, I know that for me, you know, God had a huge hand in all of this right? Because I had no idea what I was doing. I was literally making all of this up as I went along. Right but you know, my mom always tells me that your gifts will make room for you and I feel like I am the poster child for that. sentiment? Because, you know, yeah, it was it was a lot of work on my part. And it was skilling up, right. And even before I had gone back to school, I was constantly, you know, going to training programs. And you know, by at this point signing up to newsletters, right, because this is pre podcast world, right. So you're just getting your hands on everything you can however you can, and, and also taking advantage of those leadership development opportunities within the companies that I worked for, as well. And using that to really keep me sharp. But yeah, it's been a lot of twists and turns, and a lot of peaks, but a whole lot of valleys also. But you know, I'm thankful for all of it.

Bethaney Wilkinson  25:42

So I This podcast is about, you know, organizational culture and diversity. And I think one of, and one of the questions I'm asking is, what is this gap between an organization's good intentions for diversity, and then the impact of those intentions, and because of the nature of my own curiosity, I'm doing a lot of thinking around what leaders can do what managers can do to create a more diverse culture, and they're on their teams. But I think another part of it is, for any person who wants to be successful out there work is that I love that language you use of skilling up, and taking advantage of any and every opportunity to grow and learn that comes your way. And so it's a dance really, between what the organization and the larger culture is willing to do, but then also what we as individuals are willing to do to add the most value to the teams that we're on. 

Denise Reese  26:35

That's right, yeah. And it's, um, you know, I think companies and organizations just really have to be intentional. And it has to be an imperative from the top right, if you look at the, the senior executive leadership of a company, if you look at their board, and you look at the folks that are making decisions, and everyone looks alike, I question whether or not there is a real desire to, to create change. And the other thing is, you know, if you're constantly looking in the same spaces and places for talent, then you're going to get the same thing that you've already gotten. And so, you know, my own journey is an example of, you know, going to a training program, right, at this point, it was, you know, the, and I did it through University of South Florida, but it was, you know, going into a program, like a certificate program, not even a degree program, a certificate program, to seek out talent. And it reminds me of what's happening today with the rise of entities like a general assembly, and, you know, some of the other coding and developing camps and some of the, the accelerators that exist, like going into those spaces and places to look for talent, even going to a tier two, or even tier three University. Because just because you may not have the financial means to go to an MIT or to a Georgia Tech, or Stanford, right, you may not have that ability, but you are, you know, technically capable. And you've got the aptitude to understand the nuances of how technology drives business, and you've got a presence. And, you know, if you've got something that can really be nurtured and developed, then you've got to be willing to take a chance on people. And I see now I think, more and more firms are understanding that because here's the other thing, Bethany, there is a huge gap in the number of jobs that exist, versus the number of people that can fill those jobs as it stands today. And so Okay, gotta do things differently, right, you've got to if you want to fill these hundreds of 1000s of technical roles that are open, right, even right now, let's not talk about what the future looks like. But if you want to fill the gap today, and you don't necessarily want to just look at going into other countries and having to outsource to get the talent that we need to develop the diverse talent that exists here in the US, and go into those underserved, overlooked neighborhoods, and spaces and start training people to take these 21st Century Jobs.

Bethaney Wilkinson  29:18

Okay, so just to make sure I'm understanding, so you're telling me there are way more jobs open than we have people to fill them currently?

Denise Reese  29:25

Absolutely. And especially when you start to look at the various facets of technology, right? So absolutely. We're short on people who can put hands on keyboard and knock out great code, and turn that into amazing, you know, mobile or web applications. But then, you know, you look at the analytics piece, right. So okay, great. You've got a web app, you've got a mobile app. What are people doing with that? How are they using it? Where are they spending time? There's a whole space in data analytics that gives the business that detail so that you can start to create more applications and more marketing campaigns and opportunities to be able to sell to those folks, there's technology behind that, that drives all of that. There's the whole data science space that is going even deeper into into analytics. And you've got, you know, the machine learning and, you know, augmented reality, and AI and all of those things, right? Those are all jobs today that are six figure jobs that don't necessarily require a degree, it requires you to have the technical acumen and the technical skill set. Now maybe if you want to be, you know, a high end data scientists, yes, there's actually a degree that you can get in data science. But if you want to, you know, maybe take more of the analyst track or the developer track or even for that matter, the sales track, like there's other ways that you can get into that space, without having to go through the traditional four year college route, and then come out on the other end of it with a whole lot of debt. And, you know, figuring out how do you pay for that, right? So I earned believer that technology, is it not only is it the future, it's our current reality, and it can be a game changer for folks in terms of the opportunity that it creates for them.

Bethaney Wilkinson  31:12

Yes. Oh, this is so exciting. I haven't thought about this before. And so yeah, that's incredible to consider. Just the opportunity that is there. Do you know of any companies or organizations big or small that you feel like are closing the diversity gap well, within their organizations or teams?

Denise Reese  31:33

So I think a lot of the, the technology companies, especially the larger companies, right? You know, your Microsoft, your Googles, and Amazon Web Services, by all means, we are recognizing that there's a need, and we've got to fill that need. And so I see it in, you know, in my day to day, and I talked to other friends who, you know, work for the companies that I've just mentioned, and even, you know, some of the services and consulting companies, you know, your Accenture's and your IBM, like, they're waking up to the fact that, firstly, their customers are demanding this, right. So especially if you're going into public sector, and you're doing a lot of government work, when you answer a request for proposal or an RFP, oftentimes, they want to know how diverse is your organization. So just from a business imperative standpoint, companies are recognizing, okay, we can't just skew the numbers and just only talk about women, right, we've got to talk about, you know, women, we've got to talk about race and ethnicity, we've got to talk about sexual orientation, we've got to talk about, you know, folks that have various disabilities, because you can't just talk about diversity in the comfortable pieces of diversity, if you're going to focus on DNI or diversity and inclusion, you got to talk about all of it in its totality. And then, you know, the intersectionality of that, right. And so when I was at ThoughtWorks, there was a lot of focus on the intersectionality that exists between someone perhaps being a woman being a, maybe they have their a woman with a disability, and there are a woman with a disability who happens to be from a minority community, and who is, you know, maybe identifies as gay or lesbian. Right? So that's four things that that one person touches, right. And but you've got to be able to have those types of conversations. So yes, long winded answer. But there are a number of companies that I have worked for, and currently work for, that are out there that are really doing the necessary work to, to change the narrative.

Bethaney Wilkinson  33:41

That's so great. I want to ask you one more question about that. Just to dial it in for myself. And for my listeners, when you say that they're doing it, they're leaning into that hard conversation? What does that look like? Is it? Is it trainings? Are there bugs? Like, what are some of the practical nuts and bolts of how this plays out from what you've observed?

Denise Reese  33:59

Yeah, it is training, it is books, but it's also you know, things like addressing unconscious bias, right. And, you know, getting folks to really think and kind of do the work internally to think about those moments where they look at someone and pass judgment on them purely because of the color of their skin or the way that they look. And when you start having those types of conversations, it forces you to really look in the mirror and deal with your own stuff. And your own biases, your own judgments that you have. And then you start to think about that in terms of Oh, wow. So I'm more comfortable with people who look and sound like me. So I'm going to continue to just hire people that look and sound like me, but then you look around in five or 10 years, and you realize, oh wait, everybody around me looks and sounds like me, we got to do something about this. So there's a lot of discussion around you know, unconscious bias training and having you know, some of those those difficult discussions, right, you know, having listening circles, to allow folks to, you know, kind of speak candidly about their own experiences within the construct of the organizations that they work in. So it's a number of things. It's not any one thing, Bethany. But it's definitely a number of things that kind of mesh together to create this new wave and focus of diversity and inclusivity.

Bethaney Wilkinson  35:24

Yeah, that's so good. And so helpful, both the, the intersectionality piece like getting really just again, allowing ourselves to be more nuanced and see humans as people, you know, seeing the full picture of who someone is having diversity be more than just this metric thing. I do think metrics are important. They're an indicator that we should look at as we're trying to shift our organizational culture, but then also not losing sight of the fact that it's about people and people are complex. And I also really like that you gave voice to this idea of listening circles and creating some intentional feedback loops and spaces for people to express and to communicate like, Oh, this is working, or this isn't working. Yeah, it takes all of these different pieces.

Denise Reese  36:10

For sure. No, it does that it also takes people just being open and being comfortable with being uncomfortable, because that's the other thing, right? When you're really approaching diversity and inclusion in a meaningful way. And what I mean by that in a way, that is going to truly create change, and where you start to see the landscape of the organization look very different. And a lot of folks are going to be uncomfortable, and you've got to be okay with that. And I think, you know, right, wrongly or differently, I don't know that we're completely there yet. But I do think that, you know, I'm certainly, you know, 20 plus years on, after starting my career, I'm finally starting to see the changes, but I tell you, we still have a ways to go. But I'm definitely seeing the change happen. And, you know, it's something that I think we'll continue to talk about for the next 20 or 30 years, it's not going to go away, just because you have someone that is, you know, African American or woman or is a part of the LGBTQ community, or is a part of the, you know, the community of folks with disabilities, just because those folks are occupying spaces that are senior executive spaces, doesn't mean that you know, because you've got one or two folks that check a box, that doesn't mean that you don't still have work to do. It just means that you know, the doors are finally starting to open.

Bethaney Wilkinson  37:35

Yes, yes. Oh, so good. Um, so I have just a couple more questions for you. My second to last one is what encouragement would you give to an entrepreneur or a founder, or a leader who is listening to this conversation and thinking, Okay, I know that I need to take the next step. I'm terrified because this is going this could be really uncomfortable for me, what encouragement would you give to them to keep moving in this more diverse and inclusive direction?

Denise Reese  38:05

So I would say, you know, particularly for those folks who are entrepreneurs, you've already you know, proven that you are comfortable with the uncomfortable because you started your own business. So you can't choose what you want to be uncomfortable with, right? You know, if you want to, if you're serious about this, then you have to say, okay, you know, what, I've got to embrace the unknown and the ambiguous, and just like, you know, the same sort of space and power that you tap into, that causes you to wake up and decide that you're going to create a business from scratch, is probably the same power source that you've got to tap into to do this work as well. And, you know, I think the other thing is sometimes just, you know, recognizing that you've got to listen, right? You don't have all of the answers. And just because you may have been in a space that is a privilege space, one that is perhaps maybe sheltered and you haven't had certain experiences, it doesn't mean that you've got excuses first and foremost. And secondly, you've got to just sometimes just shut up and listen. And, and and be be comfortable with listening and having folks to give you that targeted feedback. And you know, the other thing that I'll say is, I saw a quote that, I think it's Rosalyn head now and I may have her name wrong. She was the first diversity and inclusion, lead or Head of Diversity and Inclusion at Intel. And she has a quote on her Twitter that I reference all the time and it is that leaders who don't lead diverse lives cannot lead diverse teams. So you your personal life, don't have any diversity. If you don't have any friends that don't look or sound like you If you're not hanging out in the parts of town, where other people who don't look and sound like you live, if you're not going into the restaurants and the spaces and places where people who don't look like you are cohabitating, you can't lead a diverse team because your life itself is not diverse.

Bethaney Wilkinson  40:18

Wow, okay. I don't even know if I need to ask my last question. I closed every I really don't I close every conversation asking, from your perspective, what is the biggest diversity gap you see? And how do you close it? And you can still respond to that question. But I feel like what you just said is a big part of it. Like, how can we cultivate diverse organizations in teams if we aren't leading diverse lives?

Denise Reese  40:43

 That's right. No, I mean, that's it right? And I'm not talking about the folks that say, Oh, well, I have a black friend, or I have an Asian friend. Okay, great. That's nice. But have they been to your house? Have you been to their house? Do your kids play together? You know, where you worship? And you know, where you get your spiritual grounding? Does it look like society? And even if it does, are you only focused on the people that look and sound like you even in that diverse space? Right? And so, you know, I think we really have to look pragmatically at the the lives that we lead, and I'm speaking to myself on this too, right? We have to really look at that and make a determination as to whether or not we're truly serious about diversity and inclusion, or are we only looking to check a box? Because, you know, it creates a great metric for our organization? Or are we wanting to truly create, change and, and create environments where everyone, irrespective of how they identify can not only be comfortable, but they can be included?

Bethaney Wilkinson  41:46

So good. Wow. Thank you so much, Denise, thank you for your time, thank you for sharing so many of the nuances of your story. And just thank you for your wisdom, even in this work. And I'm excited to know you and to keep following your journey.

Denise Reese  42:02

Thank you, Bethaney. It's an absolute pleasure. And I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you.

Bethaney Wilkinson  42:10

Last point from the Denise is still resonating with me. I think others on this podcast have given voice to similar ideas. You can't lead a diverse team if you aren't leading a diverse life. So my question to you is what is one step you can take to diversify your life in the days to come? Thanks so much for listening. Thank you for listening to The Diversity Gap podcast. If you've been challenged or inspired by what you've heard, please rate and review the show. You can also subscribe to make sure you never miss an episode. If you have thoughts or questions, I'd love to hear from you connect with me at thediversitygap.com or on Instagram @TheDiversityGap. The Diversity Gap podcast is recorded on Muskogee Creek land in Atlanta, Georgia. This episode was produced by Matt Olin for Soul Graffiti Productions.